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Subject: Re: Dr. Hyatt is right about chess programs not being GM level.

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 11:51:32 07/01/00

Go up one level in this thread


On July 01, 2000 at 13:15:36, blass uri wrote:

>On July 01, 2000 at 12:55:00, Dave Gomboc wrote:
>
>>On July 01, 2000 at 12:21:51, Adrien Regimbald wrote:
>>
>>>Hey,
>>>
>>>>Chinook is better at checkers than anything else on the planet -- by a wide
>>>>margin.
>>>
>>>
>>>Anything _alive_ yes :P  The issue of Marion is one yet undecided - and I'm not
>>>sure that Chinook could have beat him at his best, but we will never know that
>>>now though .. however, it is clear that Chinook is the best checkers "player"
>>>currently on the planet.  That being said, Chinook may be better than every
>>>other player, but it didn't demonstrate complete dominance - the top human
>>>players can still beat it once in a while :P
>>>
>>>Hmm, wait a minute.. we haven't asked the wombats.. :P
>>>
>>>
>>>Adrien.
>>
>>Dr. Tinsley '94 and Chinook '94 were about equal.  It's tough to compare Dr.
>>Tinsley '57 and Chinook '00 though.
>>
>>I don't know why you say that the top human players can still beat it once in a
>>while.  Please cite the game.  My understanding is that it hasn't lost a game
>>since the last time Tinsley beat it.  It has since clobbered both the reigning
>>human world checkers champion and the reigning human world correspondence
>>checkers champion.  We're talking +8 -0 =12 types of scores, and checkers is
>>much more drawish than chess.
>>
>>Dave
>
>What is the information that you are based on when you say that checkers is much
>more drawish than chess.
>
>Do the best players have more draws in checkers?

Yes, by a big margin, too.  Even someone as strong as Tinsley would have a long
series of draws in W.C. matches.



>
>I read some years ago that chinook had a lot of draws because of the style of
>the machine and that the result was 2:1 and 67 draws if my memory is correct.
>
>I suspect that one of the reason that chinook could win humans in checkers is
>the fact that this game is less popular than chess so humans know it less.

You _greatly_ underestimate humans here.  Tinsley had to be seen to be
believed.  He was far more dominating than even Kasparov or Fischer.




>
>The game of checkers is also more simple than chess(the number of the legal
>positions is clearly smaller because the pieces can be only in 50 squares when
>in chess there are 64 squares and there are only 2 kind of pieces for every
>player).


That is a mistake to think.  Simpler?  maybe in terms of how many moves in a
given position.  But Tinsley regularly calculated variations 40+ moves deep
because of this simplicity.  Which means that suddenly things aren't nearly so
simple any longer...




>
>The fact that the game is more simple help the machine to get better result and
>I wonder if modified chinook can win 12*12 checkers against the best humans when
>every side begins with 30 pieces(in this case I believe that the game is not
>more simple than chess).
>
>Uri



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