Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 21:26:24 09/27/00
Go up one level in this thread
On September 27, 2000 at 12:21:30, Peter Kappler wrote: >On September 27, 2000 at 09:38:02, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On September 26, 2000 at 15:45:26, Peter Kappler wrote: >> >>>On September 26, 2000 at 10:24:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On September 25, 2000 at 23:48:05, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 22:26:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 21:03:09, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:48:30, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:21:34, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 09:01:19, Antonio Dieguez wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>hello! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I come to ask two things, please... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>What are the results of the basics endgames KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR, both draws? >>>>>>>>>> if it is, there is some exceptions except the obvius? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>And can someone post some of these mate in n positions with n very very very >>>>>>>>>>high? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Thanks! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Easy position to win!! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>This is wrong. _most_ KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR are _drawn_. There are some >>>>>>>>wins for the stronger side, and even a couple of wins for the side without >>>>>>>>the B/N, but in general these are dead draws. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>These are generally draws, but they are not "dead draws". I watched an IM Ben >>>>>>>Finegold lose a drawn, but otherwise normal position in just such an ending at a >>>>>>>tournament despite the aid of adjournment analysis. Ask him. I bet he remembers. >>>>>>>It was against a computer and it cost him a lot of money. You must be thinking >>>>>>>of KR vs KB, which is generally mindlessly easy to hold. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I didn't say "mindlessly easy to draw". I said "dead drawn". IE most of >>>>>>the positions are draws. KRN vs KR is easy to draw as a human. KRB vs KR is >>>>>>harder to draw but it is _still_ a well-known draw. Although there are some >>>>>>programs that don't know this and blunder into it thinking they are a whole >>>>>>piece up for about 50 moves... >>>>> >>>>>Ahem. I never claimed you said KRBKR was "mindlessly easy to draw". You're >>>>>having problems understanding simple english. >>>>> >>>>>KRBKR is not a "dead draw". A good player stands a fair chance of losing that >>>>>ending. Do you think you yourself can reliably hold it against Crafty? >>>> >>>>I'm not having any trouble with English here. "dead drawn" means "unwinnable". >>>>Not "easily unwinnable" or "unwinnable if the opponent plays a perfect (and >>>>difficult to follow) series of moves." >>>> >>> >>>I have to agree with Ricardo. I think you're using the word "dead" way too >>>loosely here. >>> >>>"Dead drawn" implies that there are no difficult moves to find, and no chances >>>of getting swindled. You don't hear KRBKR described as a dead draw, because >>>everybody knows that the drawing technique is difficult. Same thing for many >>>theoretically drawn KQPKQ and KRPKR endings. The defender has to play >>>accurately in these positions. >>> >>>I sure as heck wouldn't offer a draw from the stronger side of KRBKR. I'd >>>torture my opponent for a couple of hours and make him prove it. :) >>> >>>--Peter >>> >> >> >>I use the term "dead drawn" for positions where there is no hope to win. For >>an example, set up any krb vs kr with Crafty and play it out. You'll then >>appreciate the dead drawn description. >> >>:) >> > > >Nice try, but "dead drawn" is supposed to be a general description of a >position. Factoring in the strength of the players just adds an unnecessary >assymetry. For example, if I have the rook, and Crafty has the rook+bishop, >suddenly it's not a dead draw. > >--Peter > In that regard, KNN vs K is not a dead draw. The side with the K can always blunder. I call this a dead draw because I know that if Crafty trades into a KRB vs KR is it _not_ going to win most of them, assuming the opponent is an IM, a GM, or a Computer. > > >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>>KRB vs KR is a dead drawn position except for a few exceptions. Just as KBN vs >>>>K is a win (not easy for some of course) and KQ vs KR. >>>> >>>>And yes, I would be willing to tackle Crafty. KRB has a few pitfalls that KRN >>>>doesn't have. But if you study the ending a bit, it is as easy to draw as it >>>>is to win with KQ vs KR, for example. >>>>
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