Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 06:25:51 10/10/00
Go up one level in this thread
On October 10, 2000 at 07:18:13, Jason Williamson wrote: >On October 09, 2000 at 22:31:33, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On October 09, 2000 at 13:59:55, Aaron Tay wrote: >> >>>On October 09, 2000 at 13:38:37, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On October 09, 2000 at 12:46:27, Joshua Lee wrote: >>>> >>>>>Since you can't compare them by playing each other what about comparing >>>>>printouts? Are there any printouts that have NPS Depth line etc. If i had this i >>>>>would attempt. I did look at a game against Chiptest where CB had 14 Ne6 but >>>>>played Na4<-- not the losing move but not as good as Ne6 CB get's a queen Vs 3 >>>>>minor pieces which is not easy but it would be alot better than the situation >>>>>before if CB could keep his queen on and exchange rooks it makes it easier. As >>>>>Black's only chances would be to obtain a new queen not likely. So the outcome >>>>>is probably a draw but this is just my guess. To see this move for Crafty would >>>>>be over 14Ply on my 800Mhz Athlon just to give you some idea. If you can >>>>>elaborate on CB's earlier versions and how they played maybe this will answer my >>>>>questions and help you to improve on crafty. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Sometimes it's all about asking the right question. >>>>> >>>>>thank you >>>> >>>> >>>>Actually I did this a couple of years ago and posted the results in r.g.c.c I >>>>believe. I took a couple of the world championship 1986 games (the wc won by >>>>CB for the second time in a row) and had Crafty 'annotate' the games. It was >>>>uncanny how they agreed tactically. Of course, 1986 CB was doing maybe 100-200K >>>>nodes per second max, so crafty had a big edge in speed. But it found _zero_ >>>>tactical mistakes by CB. >>>> >>>>I analyzed the games partly in a discussion with Chris Whittington where he >>>>was into the usual mode of criticizing Cray Blitz for any reason. He picked on >>>>one particular move as looking foolish. Someone else pointed out that CSTal >>>>played the _same_ move, as it was tactically forced to avoid losing a pawn, >>>>but of course that didn't make any difference. I became interested in how >>>>Crafty would compare. I gave crafty more time than CB had, using faster >>>>hardware than CB had (1986 hardware for CB, remember), and it couldn't find >>>>any move it would label as a mistake or oversight. >>>> >>>>CB was tactically very strong. In most positional cases the two programs were >>>>in agreement as well, which is not surprising since I wrote both. >>>> >>>>The main advantage CB might have had back then was far faster hardware than >>>>anything I might run Crafty on in 1986. Of course Crafty would have run on a >>>>Cray back then, but it would have been far slower as Crafty is not vectorized >>>>while CB was. I suspect there is not a lot of difference in the two programs >>>>today. CB might have a tactical edge due to singular extensions and a bit of >>>>selectiveness near the leaf positions, while crafty probably has more >positional (particularly endgame) knowledge (excepting king safety where CB >was clearly better). >>> >>>Sorry to interrupt, but does that mean that as of today you wouldn't bet on >>>Crafty running on your current hardware to beat CB (the lastest/last version)? >>> >>>So when do you anticipate will Crafty overtake CB? In 5 years time, when everone >>>is using better hardware? >> >> >>You will have to rephrase your question a bit. But to help, if you meant >>"can crafty on the quad xeon play with Cray Blitz on the T90?" the answer >>is _NO_. CB on the T90 runs at around 7M nodes per second, about 7X faster >>than the quad xeon. I wouldn't want to play such a handicap match. >> >>On the other hand, if you mean "Can Crafty, on the best box you can get today >>play with CB on the T90?" the answer is yes. I have some data from Tim Mann's >>21264a machine which is about as fast as my quad xeon, but using a single cpu >>at 667 mhz. A 16 cpu machine would be faster than Cray Blitz. And I would >>expect it to win more than it would lose, although I think it would be pretty >>close. > >Next question, which costs more the 16 cpu alpha or the 30 million dollar cray? >;) The cray. :)
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