Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 07:02:16 12/27/00
Go up one level in this thread
On December 26, 2000 at 02:37:54, Frank Quisinsky wrote: >On December 25, 2000 at 20:31:21, Peter Berger wrote: > >>On December 25, 2000 at 18:33:39, Frank Quisinsky wrote: >><snip> >> >>>I mean for marketing ... ! >>> >>>On the other hand ... Shredder lose not 1 game in the latest 5 important >>>tournaments. This program is strong, very strong ! >>> >>>Intersting is a tournament from the TOP 4 programs: >>> >>>Deep Fritz, Shredder, Chess Tiger and Gandalf ! >>>Here a tournament all against all other 100 games, fast PC and I think 40 moves >>>in 40 minutes is enough. >>> >>>I think you can here better see what is the best computer program for a match >>>against Anand. And believe me ... Gandalf make not the latest place ! >>> >>>Best >>>Frank >> >>Hmm , I wouldn't be too surprised if Gandalf ended last in this tournament ;-) ; >>but maybe this is only because I don't own this super hardware where it is said >>to be unbeatable .. >> >>These are the TOP 4 ? May I add 4 more ? >> >>Nimzo 8 , Junior 6 , Rebel Century 3.0 , Chessmaster 8000 . >> >>Are you really sure that your 4 would be higher ranked than "my" 4 and none of >>these 4 could end as overall winner of this big contest :-) ? > >I know results from over 1.200 games. I think this is enough to say it is one of >the best programs. > >I don`t know the new Chessmaster and saw not enough games. Nimzo 8 and Junior 6 >are very strong but I think Fritz, Gandalf, Tiger and Shredder are better. Rebel >Century is also very strong, here I believe that the other 4 programs are >stronger. I am not sure ! Gandalf has problems against Century and Shredder >(44-48% with longer time controls). Problems against Chess Tiger (48%) not >against Gambit-Tiger and all other TOP programs with longer time controls and an >fast PC. But all other TOP programs have problems against different other TOP >programs, I think this is interesting. > >Nimzo 8 started at the moment in my CCE tourney. After 5:3 against Comet B.27, >now 3.5 : 2.5 against Crafty 17.14. More results coming soon. I think Nimzo 8.0 >is not one of the best programs. Gandalf has also not very big problems against >all Nimzo versions. > >But all these programs are very intersting. > >>It seems to me that the competition at the top is closer than ever . And I also >>think to find out who is the best opponent for Anand this tournament wouldn't >>help at all. > >The best program against a good GM is a programs which play good in tactical >positions and good in attack chess. > >LCT-II test: Gandalf is number 1 ! >GS-2930 test: Gandalf solved 10 problems, I believe under the top 3 ! >BS-2930 test: Over 2.700 ELO and I believe under the top 3 ! > >Gandalf plays the best attack chess from all programs which I saw, have a lot of >knowledge and so I have the opinion that Gandalf is a good program for a match >against a SUPER GM ! > >I am sure, so I can write this ... no problem ! > >Best >Frank Actually i think Gandalf already proved itself on the icc server against top GMs. And we see many postings here from all kind of weird dudes asking: "what is best program to play humans". Answer is like Frank already noted the program that's playing very aggressive against mankind and opening positions quickly! Also such a program must have a chance to play top gm's, because let's face it. I think Gandalf would not have done worse as junior in that tournament where junior got 2700 as tpr. First time mankind plays against an aggressive program you lose incredible. Now even if the top-gms objectively are better, you need to know who you play or you face death-sentence. If you think "oh this program i can fool by doing this bad move" without knowing whether the program you play is bad in that aspect of the game, or if you think "oh this program i can fool by playing berlin defense", then you face a zero. In that last case you face a big zero anyway. However things start to get different when you play a match against a program and also when you know it. Fritz5 has no big secrets for most GMs anymore, but they are amazed if they are faced against the much more aggressive 6x versions of fritz. Very important is also that usual play against a program for some reason is never serious. I can't remember last serious game i played against a program. I'm kibitzing a lot, talking to different persons, checking my email and doing all kind of things at the same time. If not playing online but at home i usually telephone to someone at the same time, get something to eat and drink but i'm not real much busy with the board. You're playing something which is 'stupid' and you as the 'smart' human only need to find a way to fool its evaluation, taking into account that the thing is playing perfect chess if best moves are forced... ...so you want to let the beast sleep and give it choices to do things wrong... I definitely am pestered by the above mentality, but i think if we multiply it by a large factor and add some ignorance we are at GM level. Nevertheless i have to see the first program beat a certain type of GM, the type of GM perhaps best illustrated by Ikonnikov. He's playing very strategic. He's tactical that bad, that in blitz with scores of -8.0 (from computerside) he still manages to lose it. However every game he gets to a similar score, so somehow he's strategical way better but blows it in blitz. In a slow game i would however like to see how he performs against a program, as i have already a very sure opinion about it. However and now comes the real sad thing: HE WILL NEVER PLAY AGAINST A COMPUTER, not because he dislikes too: in contradiction he LOVES to play them. But because with 25xx he is not very interesting to play against commercially seen as the only interesting thign is to get to a TPR close to 2700 from commercial side seen, and hell sure playing human-computers is a very commercial thing nowadays, as they ask huge prices! Therefore i'm very happy with the upcoming match rebel-v/d Wiel in januar. I go and look over there! What i don't know is whether tiger plays there or whether rebel itself plays there, as nowadays rebel tiger is sold as 'rebel' and despite that everyone on icc swears he's playing with rebel under windows in a graphical interface, it always appears they play with tiger then... ...so for me it is real interesting to know who plays against v/d wiel... ...as Tiger is quite a different program to fight as Rebel. Tiger is way more aggressive as Rebel. Vincent
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