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Subject: Re: [DIEP] How DIEP is sailing

Author: Chessfun

Date: 18:09:23 05/29/01

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On May 29, 2001 at 13:02:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>    round 3 :  Ferret - diep    1-0
>
>Diep played Najdorf and got itself a splendid position despite that
>the number of variations in my tournament book is not so big.
>However bad luck struck for diep this time. Something went wrong
>with king safety and diep walked its king into the center. Now despite
>that Ferret kept on playing nullmoves and my score went high. So
>i assume somewhere there a penalty must have had a plus instead of
>a minus. Perhaps i'll figure it out tonight. Anyway. Playing with a rook
>less lost quick for DIEP though. Complete crush after playing with that
>rook less. Great debug info though!

>      round 8 : crafty - diep   0-1

>But to get to the game. Same line as against ferret up to 12th move
>of black. I was pretty amazed
>actually. Any automatic generated book would have played in poisened pawn
>the Qd2 move allowing me to get a REAL poisened pawn by taking on b2.
>
>However crafty played Nb3. I DEFINITELY like to know why, because a
>posting of Bob:
>  Posted by Robert Hyatt (Profile) on May 28, 2001 at 00:46:07:
>
>  "
>  [snip]
>
>  >
>  >It shouldn't be the case that someone signs a contract with
>  >ChessBase and   then
>  >sighs with relief because they know they're going to gain
>  >an extra couple of
>  >points at the next tournament, because they can use
>  >opening book technology
>  >shared by all of the Chessbase products.
>  >
>  >bruce
>
>  I won't disagree.  But it is already happening.  If I ever play
>  in what I consider an important event, it will be one of my
>  goals to take some sort of evasive action, book-wise.
>  Or take my main goal:  to make hand-tuned books
>  obsolete.  I believe that is possible over time.
>  I'm going to try to do it."
>
>Oh well obviously crafty isn't playing with a non-hand tuned thing here,
>because any automatic generated book will see that after
>  e4 c5 nf3 d6 d4 cd nd4 nf6 nc3 a6 bg5 e6 f4 qb6
>  a) 8.Nb3 has a bad score for white
>  b) 8.Qd2 is played way more times and has a better score for
>     white.

According to DeepFritz.ctg the chance of 8. Nb3 is 15.2% and only
actually has a performance difference of -6 2547 v 2553. I never
checked other books but would assume similar percentages.

>But main factor is that Qd2 is at least 10 times more played as Nb3,
>which will render any thought of playing Nb3 useless!

Not useless just less.

>Anyway my surprise became even BIGGER, when the exact same line as
>against ferret came onto the board. Only at move 13 a different move
>was selected, probably even better as the book move played by ferret.
>
>If that's non-hand tuned then i'll eat my hat!

What makes you think that 13. Qh3 is such a good move?
Ferret's 13. a3 looks better.

>Anyway, DIEP frightened its programmer here by quickly castling, but after
>a few nullmoves of crafty, things were very clear in favour for diep then.

I would like to have read more of your thoughts on both these games.
However great reading your thoughts on all matches !.

Some of your comments though as the following I feel should be a
little less open or maybe spirited.

>2400 7814059  Kaan                J.E.F.            M 1245* 14-
>
>Now compare that with a 1245 rated 'born loser' Jan Kaan who
>played in I-CSVN with Yace with his own home made book. Of
>course that book doesn't make a chance, not to mention that
>it lost strategically in every line for Yace!
>
>Because that is the bitter reality. Now you don't need too much rating
>yourself to make a good book, as making a book is completely different
>from playing chess in a tournament.
>
>However, some strategical insight is at least needed to make a book.
>I know some 1200 rated KNSB players who play correspondence chess and
>manage to get good openings positions there, but of course Jan Kaan
>is completely chanceless against guys who DEFINITELY know strategics
>a bit like Pesce who made a book for Yace and Pharaon.
>
>  105872  Pesce, Carlos                         ARG  2045    0  19.04.61
>
>I'm really amazed that programmer of Yace allowed Jan1245 to delete
>at home the very good Pesce book and replace it by a Jan Kaan
>"automatic generated beginners book".
>
>Because strategically Jan Kaan is of course infinitely and with
>induction to forever worse than Pesce, who is at a chess level that
>he might outbook any IM and some GMs also.
>
>'Kaan automatic generated beginner books'

What details do you have on the Kaan book to call it a beginner book.

First you say "Because that is the bitter reality. Now you don't need too much
rating yourself to make a good book, as making a book is completely different
from playing chess in a tournament." Then critique the book, one which you
probably haven't analyzed.

Just seems like a personal attack to me.
Even the comments about Patzer I thought were harsh at times.

However as usual your posts do make for a fun read !

Sarah.








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