Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 07:01:10 09/24/01
Go up one level in this thread
On September 23, 2001 at 12:26:44, José Carlos wrote: >On September 23, 2001 at 11:51:02, Mike S. wrote: > >>On September 23, 2001 at 11:13:14, José Carlos wrote: >> >>>(...) Besides, I belive the "scale" (if we can >>>use this term) is smaler in human world than in comp-comp world, meaning that a >>>small difference between two versions of a program (or two different programs, >>>of course) can appear over and over in games, translating into more and more >>>rating points. >> >>This would be the case only if it's not just a small, but also a decisive >>difference, furthermore many programs have position learning. > > I disagree. Humans are irregular. They can be happy and attack wildly or be >sad and lose badly against a weaker opponent, etc. Computers are regular. They >always do the same mistakes and the same good moves. Position learning is not >enough to prevent this behaviour. You'd need a many Gigs positions file to hide >a weak point of a program. > Additionally, the "human world" contains many thousands of players, while the >comp-comp world is much smaller. I believe that the bigger the pool is, the >smaller the scale. > Just my opinion, anyway. > > José C. > I totally disagree with that last statement. If you and I play, and you win 3 of every four games, then our ratings should end up about 200 points different no matter whether you and I are the only two players in the rating pool, or we are in a pool with a million people. I believe that the rating improvement for hardware speed advances is simply smaller for human opponents because against humans, there is a judgement component (knowledge) and a search component. Speed influences the search component _only_. Against computers, that is important. Against humans, it is only 50% of the problem... >>But there's another aspect of this type of speed/strength estimation: The faster >>program can't be +60 elo (or whatever the value is) stronger at every move in a >>game. Actually, many moves will be the same on 400 MHz and on 800 MHz, if this >>is the only difference of the conditions. In some positions, moves will be >>different but not necessarily stronger (i.e., if there is a number of moves >>within a narrow margin of evaluations). Btw. I've heard experiments have been >>made, showing that approx. 16% of moves are different if the search is one ply >>deeper. >> >>So I think there is a very small number of moves, maybe only one or two per >>game, where the higher speed is decisive for the result. Humans are certainly >>more flexible in time consumption, and probably can adapt better to that than >>programs. Furthermore, the higher speed affects only parts of a programs >>performance. Opening book, egtbs, and parts of what can be described as >>knowledge (in human terms) of the program, is the same at all cpu speeds and >>time settings. >> >>Regards, >>M.Scheidl
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