Author: Uri Blass
Date: 04:51:03 10/01/01
Go up one level in this thread
On October 01, 2001 at 07:43:43, Uri Blass wrote: >On October 01, 2001 at 07:02:03, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On September 30, 2001 at 19:33:38, Slater Wold wrote: >> >>>On September 30, 2001 at 18:22:25, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>1)Junior7 also play good sacrifices that other programs do not consider so it is >>>>not clear if the alternative not to let it to do it is better. >>> >>>I agree. I have seen it execute some very great sacrifices....... >>> >>>> >>>>Amir(the programmer of Junior) explained that Juior knows no better way and >>>>it means that doing it more materialistic is going to be counter productive(of >>>>course there are cases when it is going to be productive but there are more >>>>cases when it is going to be counter productive). >>> >>>I understand. It's asking the computer to see further than it can see. But >>>from what I've seen, it seems to be a lot more productive, than counter >>>productive. Because I believe (my) DJ7 wins a lot more than it loses. >>> >>>> >>>>2)I have also an example from one of my correspondence games when Junior >>>>hesitates if to sacrifice a piece for 3 pawns(it wants to sacrifice a piece >>>>after some time but after more time changes it's mind). >>> >>>I believe that in an endgame, this might not be a bad idea, or at least >>>considers some thought. (DF is KNOWN for sac'ing pieces for pawns, in the >>>endgame.) But on move 10, it's dangerous. There is _no_ clear advatange, even >>>in DJ7's mainline, to trade the N for 3 p's. >>> >>>> >>>>Deep Fritz in that example likes to sacrifice and it can see a clear advantage >>>>but it is not clear if the sacrifice is correct or not correct(I chose to >>>>sacrifice the piece and we are already some moves after it). >>> >>>Hard to agree or disagree, without a position. :) >>> >>>> >>>>I may post the game later and I do not want to discuss this question here before >>>>the game ends. >>> >>>I would be very interested. Please do. >>> >>>> >>>>The game is from the championship of Israel in correspondence games and >>>>I have 4 out of 5 in the finished games and 3 unfinished games. >>>> >>>>I have a winning position in 2 out of 3 of my games and the game that I talk >>>>about is the only game when I do not feel sure about the result after correct >>>>play of both sides. >>>> >>>>Note that I tried engine-engine games before deciding about the sacrifice and >>>>the only thing that I can tell is that there were no draws in these games and >>>>none of these games were leading to the position that is today some moves after >>>>the sacrifice. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>> >>>I look forward to seeing these games! >>> >>> >> >>I cannot post the full game now but I think that I can safely post position >>from move 15 of the game(we are at move 34) when I decided not to sacrifice a >>piece inspite of the fact that Deep fritz asked me to sacrifice the piece >> >>I chose the quiet move 15.Bf1 that was suggested by the tigers(I did not have >>Deep Fritz interface for the tigers at that time but I copied the line of tiger >>and saved them) >> >>Uri blass - Yoav dothan >>[D]r4r1k/1bqnbpp1/p2ppn1p/1p6/3NP3/P1N4Q/1PP1BPPP/2BRR1K1 w - - 0 1 >> >>Analysis by Deep Fritz: >> >>15.Qxe6-- >> -+ (-3.50) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >>15.Bd3 Ne5 16.Bf4 Rfc8 17.Qg3 >> ² (0.34) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 12kN >>15.Qe3! >> ² (0.38) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 15kN >>15.Qe3 Rfc8 16.f4 d5 17.e5 Ne8 >> ² (0.28) Depth: 6/22 00:00:00 52kN >>15.Bd3! >> ² (0.31) Depth: 6/25 00:00:00 70kN >>15.Bd3 Ne5 16.Bg5 Kg8 17.Bf4 >> ² (0.28) Depth: 7/23 00:00:00 173kN >>15.Bd3 Ne5 16.f4 Nxd3 17.cxd3 d5 18.Qf3 dxe4 19.dxe4 Rad8 >> = (0.19) Depth: 8/27 00:00:01 523kN >>15.Be3! >> = (0.22) Depth: 8/29 00:00:02 1378kN >>15.Be3! Nxe4 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Kg8 18.Nxe4 Bxe4 19.Nxe6 fxe6 >> = (0.25) Depth: 8/29 00:00:02 1432kN >>15.Be3 Rad8 16.Bg5 Kg8 17.Bh4 Ne5 18.Qe3 d5 19.f4 >> = (0.19) Depth: 9/32 00:00:05 2957kN >>15.Bd3! >> = (0.22) Depth: 9/32 00:00:06 3248kN >>15.Bf3! >> = (0.25) Depth: 9/32 00:00:08 4352kN >>15.Bf3 Ne5 16.Bf4 Nc4 17.e5 dxe5 18.Bxe5 Qb6 19.Bxb7 Qxb7 20.Rb1 Rad8 >> = (0.03) Depth: 10/32 00:00:12 6718kN >>15.Bd3! >> = (0.06) Depth: 10/32 00:00:12 6857kN >>15.Bd3! Rac8 16.Qg3 Ne5 17.Be3 Nc4 18.Bxc4 Qxc4 19.Bf4 d5 20.f3 >> = (0.22) Depth: 10/33 00:00:14 8094kN >>15.Bd3 Nc5 16.Be3 Rfc8 17.f3 d5 18.exd5 Nxd3 19.Rxd3 Nxd5 20.Nxd5 >> = (0.16) Depth: 11/36 00:00:59 32815kN >>15.Be3! >> = (0.19) Depth: 11/36 00:01:10 38445kN >>15.Be3 Rfe8 16.Bd3 Nc5 17.Qg3 Nfxe4 18.Bxe4 Nxe4 19.Nxe4 Bxe4 20.Bxh6 Bg6 >> = (0.19) Depth: 12/36 00:02:30 79293kN >>15.Be3 Rfe8 16.Bd3 Ne5 17.Bf4 Kg8 18.Nf3 Red8 19.Nxe5 >> = (0.16) Depth: 13/39 00:06:05 201799kN >>15.Be3 Rfe8 16.Bd3 Ne5 17.f4 Nc4 18.Bxc4 Qxc4 19.e5 Nd5 20.Nxd5 >> = (0.16) Depth: 14/44 00:16:35 575542kN >>15.Be3 Rab8 16.Bg5 Rfe8 17.Bc1 Rbc8 18.Bf1 Nc5 19.f3 Qb6 >> = (0.09) Depth: 15/43 01:02:11 2252600kN >>15.Bd3! >> = (0.13) Depth: 15/43 01:16:02 2761421kN >>15.Bd3! Ne5 16.f4 Nc4 17.g4 d5 18.g5 Nxe4 19.Nxe4 >> = (0.19) Depth: 15/45 01:51:41 4019251kN >>15.Nd5! >> = (0.22) Depth: 15/45 02:34:28 5613455kN >>15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Ndf6 20.Nxg8 >> ² (0.38) Depth: 16/46 02:59:49 6574760kN >>15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Ndf6 20.Nxg8 Rxg8 >> = (0.22) Depth: 17/45 04:03:25 9089131kN >>15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Ndf6 20.Nxg8 >> = (0.25) Depth: 18/47 06:52:40 15775110kN >>15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Ndf6 20.Nxg8 Rxg8 >> = (0.25) Depth: 19/49 18:23:32 43123576kN >> >>(blass, tel-aviv 03.04.2001) >> >>Gambittiger's analysis >> >>00:00:00.1 0.28 6 80734 Bf1 Ne5 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 exd5 >>00:00:00.1 0.34 6 81216 Bf1 Qc5 Qf3 Ne5 Qf4 Nh5 >>00:00:01.2 0.40 7 191652 Bf1 Qc5 Be3 Qc7 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 >>00:00:01.3 0.34 8 314903 Bf1 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxe6 N7f6 Nxd5 Nxd5 Rxd5 >>Bxd5 Qxe7 Qxc2 >>00:00:04.6 0.30 9 670111 Bf1 Nc5 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Qh5 Bb7 Be3 >>00:00:10.5 0.28 10 1673234 Bf1 Kg8 f3 d5 e5 Nxe5 Nxe6 Qb6+ Nd4 Bc5 Be3 >>00:00:24.5 0.28 11 4118062 Bf1 Kg8 Be3 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Nh5 Qg4 Nf6 >>00:01:25.2 0.20 12 15032529 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Qc5 Qf2 Kg8 Bf4 Nh5 Be3 >>00:03:42.1 0.20 13 42530376 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Qa5 Be3 Nh5 Qg4 Nf6 Qh4 >>Qe5 >>00:14:29.0 0.20 14 167993884 Bf1 Ne5 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Qh5 Nd7 Be3 Bf6 >>Bd3 Qe5 Qxe5 Nxe5 Be2 >>00:28:43.8 0.28 14 323514398 f3 Nb6 Qg3 Nfd7 Rf1 Rfc8 Bf4 Nc5 Be3 Bf6 Qg4 Qe7 >>Rf2 Nc4 >>00:42:28.5 0.22 15 486274085 f3 Nb6 Qg3 Nfd7 Rf1 Bf6 Rf2 Rfc8 Bf1 d5 Qxc7 Rxc7 >>exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Bf4 >>03:04:52.1 0.22 16 -2035399277 f3 Bd8 Be3 Qc8 Nb3 Bb6 Bxb6 Nxb6 Na5 Nc4 Bxc4 >>bxc4 Na4 Rd8 Rd4 d5 Nxb7 Qxb7 exd5 >>05:52:59.4 0.26 16 -139113515 Bf1 Rfc8 g4 Kg8 f4 Nh7 Bg2 Qb6 e5 d5 Qg3 Rc4 Be3 >>Bc5 Nce2 Qc7 >>15:51:04.5 0.26 17 -967694180 Bf1 Rfc8 g4 Kg8 f4 Nh7 Qg2 Qd8 Re2 Bf6 Qf3 Qe7 Rg2 >>Nc5 Be3 Nf8 g5 hxg5 fxg5 >> >>Tiger14's analysis >>00:00:00.1 0.18 7 72478 f3 Ne5 Rf1 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Qg3 >>00:00:00.2 0.08 7 152673 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Be3 Nf6 Bd3 >>00:00:01.2 0.06 8 250574 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Be3 Nc5 Qh5 Bf6 Qg4 >>00:00:03.5 0.04 9 491079 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Be3 Nc5 Qg4 Bd6 g3 >>00:00:06.0 0.06 9 1163956 Bf1 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxe6 N7f6 Nxd5 Nxd5 Rxd5 >>Bxd5 Qxd5 Qxc2 Rxe7 >>00:00:12.9 0.04 10 2114406 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Nd7 Be3 Bf6 Re2 >>00:00:31.6 0.08 11 5438174 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Nd7 Be3 Bf6 Rd2 Nc5 >>00:01:01.8 0.06 12 11034602 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Nd7 Be3 Bf6 Rd2 Nc5 >>Red1 >>00:03:32.6 0.02 13 39053915 Bf1 Ne5 Qe3 Nc4 Qg3 Rfc8 Bxc4 bxc4 f3 Nh5 Qf2 Qb6 g3 >>Nf6 >>00:17:27.7 0.06 14 206800570 Bf1 Ne5 f4 Nc4 g4 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 g5 Rg8 Bg2 >>Bxg2 Qxg2 Bc5 gxh6 gxh6 >>01:12:51.7 0.02 15 877173192 Bf1 Nb6 Bd3 Kg8 Qg3 Nh5 Qf3 Nf6 Bf1 Nc4 Qg3 Nh5 Qd3 >>Bh4 Qh3 >>02:15:22.9 0.02 16 1701341968 Bf1 Nb6 Bd3 Kg8 Re3 Nh7 Rg3 Ng5 Qg4 Bf6 Bf1 Nc4 h4 >>h5 Qf4 e5 >>07:05:55.7 -0.04 17 1172099456 Bf1 Ne5 f4 Nc4 b3 Nb6 Bb2 Kg8 Qg3 Rfd8 Re3 Nh5 >>Qf3 Nf6 a4 bxa4 Nxa4 Nxa4 bxa4 >>58:22:38.1 -0.02 18 1518540532 Bf1 Rfc8 g4 Kg8 f4 Nc5 Bg2 Nh7 e5 d5 Re2 Nf8 f5 >>Bg5 Bxg5 hxg5 Qe3 Qd8 fxe6 fxe6 >> >>Uri > >Here is Junior7's analysis of the same position(I had not Junior7 at the time of >the analysis) >It also wants to sacrifice but the evaluation is negative and I suspect that it >may change it's mind later > >I expect it to be faster on faster hardware and one of the reason is not the >speed difference but the fact that it may jumps faster to depth 18. > >going from depth 15 to 16 to 17 to 18 is probably slower than going from depth >15 to 17 to 18 but when Junior does not know the target time it start to do >small jumps of 1 after few minutes. > >It is possible to prevent this problem by using some long tournament time >control before starting long analysis like 10 hours for 10 moves but Junior may >give different analysis because of different contempt so it is possible that we >need to change the contempt parameter in order to get similiar analysis(the >default contempt of Junior for analysis is 0 when the default contempt for >playing is 0.15 pawn). > >Uri Blass - Yoav duthan >r4r1k/1bqnbpp1/p2ppn1p/1p6/3NP3/P1N4Q/1PP1BPPP/2BRR1K1 w - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Junior 7: > >15.a4 Bxe4 16.Nxe4 > = (-0.17) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >15.f3 Qc5 > = (-0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >15.Bg5 Bxe4 16.Nxe4 > = (-0.07) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >15.Qd3 Qc5 > = (0.04) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >15.Qe3 Qc5 > = (0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >15.Qe3 Rfc8 16.Bd2 > = (-0.04) Depth: 6 00:00:00 2kN >15.Qe3 Ne5 16.Bd2 Qc5 17.h3 > = (-0.21) Depth: 9 00:00:00 49kN >15.Bxh6! > ² (0.26) Depth: 9 00:00:00 185kN >15.Bxh6! gxh6 16.Qxh6+ Nh7 17.h4 Nc5 18.h5 Nxe4 > ² (0.35) Depth: 9 00:00:00 236kN >15.Bxh6 gxh6 16.Qxh6+ Nh7 17.g3 Bg5 18.Qh3 Nc5 19.Bh5 Nf6 > ³ (-0.47) Depth: 12 00:00:03 2057kN >15.Qf3 Ne5 16.Qe3 Rfc8 17.h3 Qc5 18.f4 Nc4 > = (-0.24) Depth: 12 00:00:03 2403kN >15.g4 Nh7 16.Nf3 Ndf6 17.Nd2 Ng5 18.Qe3 > = (-0.10) Depth: 12 00:00:07 4767kN >15.Bd2 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 > = (-0.06) Depth: 12 00:00:13 8753kN >15.Bd2 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Qh5 Rf8 19.Qh6 Bg5 20.Qh5 Qc5 > = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:00:25 16343kN >15.Nf3 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Qh5 Rf8 19.h4 Bf6 20.Qh6 Bxc3 > = (-0.15) Depth: 15 00:01:17 48105kN >15.Bf1 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Qh5 Rf8 19.h3 Bg5 20.Be2 > = (-0.13) Depth: 15 00:01:57 70849kN >15.Bf1 Rfc8 16.Qg3 Nc5 17.Qf3 Qb6 18.Bd2 e5 19.Nf5 > = (-0.19) Depth: 16 00:02:58 102386kN >15.Rd3 Kh7 16.Rg3 Rfe8 17.b4 Rac8 18.Bd1 d5 > = (-0.09) Depth: 16 00:07:39 264688kN >15.Rd3 Kh7 16.Rg3 Rfc8 17.Bh5 Nxh5 18.Qxh5 Ne5 19.h3 > = (-0.19) Depth: 17 00:09:15 318567kN >15.Nf3 Nc5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.h4 Rg8 19.h5 Bf8 20.Qf4 Rc8 > = (-0.15) Depth: 17 00:13:05 444448kN >15.Nf3 Nc5 16.Bd3 e5 17.Bxh6 gxh6 18.Qxh6+ Nh7 19.g3 Nxd3 20.Rxd3 Rg8 21.Nd5 >Bxd5 > = (-0.15) Depth: 18 00:20:37 702730kN >15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Rg7 20.exd5 Ne5 21.Nf5 >Rg6 22.Qf4 Rag8 23.Ne3 Qe7 24.Bh5 > = (-0.08) Depth: 18 00:29:36 1003204kN > >(Blass, Tel-aviv 01.10.2001) > >Uri I tried Junior with the same parameters at playing conditions and it fails high on Nd5 at depth 17(10 hours/30 moves that practically means 10 hours/16 moves because we are in move 15) I suspect that on better hardware Junior7 may jump from depth 15 to depth 17 on analysis mode. Junior 7 - Blass,U r4r1k/1bqnbpp1/p2ppn1p/1p6/3NP3/P1N4Q/1PP1BPPP/2BRR1K1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Junior 7: 15.a4 Bxe4 16.Nxe4 = (-0.17) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.f3 Qc5 = (-0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.Bg5 Bxe4 16.Nxe4 = (-0.07) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.Qd3 Qc5 = (0.04) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.Qe3 Qc5 = (0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.Qe3 Rfc8 16.Bd2 = (-0.04) Depth: 6 00:00:00 2kN 15.Qe3 Ne5 16.Bd2 Qc5 17.h3 = (-0.21) Depth: 9 00:00:00 49kN 15.Bxh6! ² (0.26) Depth: 9 00:00:00 185kN 15.Bxh6! gxh6 16.Qxh6+ Nh7 17.h4 Nc5 18.h5 Nxe4 ² (0.35) Depth: 9 00:00:00 236kN 15.Bxh6 gxh6 16.Qxh6+ Nh7 17.g3 Bg5 18.Qh3 Nc5 19.Bh5 Nf6 ³ (-0.47) Depth: 12 00:00:03 2057kN 15.Qf3 Ne5 16.Qe3 Rfc8 17.h3 Qc5 18.f4 Nc4 = (-0.24) Depth: 12 00:00:03 2403kN 15.g4 Nh7 16.Nf3 Ndf6 17.Nd2 Ng5 18.Qe3 = (-0.10) Depth: 12 00:00:07 4767kN 15.Bd2 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 = (-0.06) Depth: 12 00:00:13 8753kN 15.Bd2 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Qh5 Rf8 19.Qh6 Bg5 20.Qh5 Qc5 = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:00:25 16468kN 15.Nf3 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Qh5 Rf8 19.h4 Bf6 20.Qh6 Bxc3 = (-0.15) Depth: 15 00:01:16 48232kN 15.Bf1 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Qh5 Rf8 19.h3 Bg5 20.Be2 = (-0.13) Depth: 15 00:01:52 70975kN 15.Bf1 Rfc8 16.g4 Nh7 17.Bg2 Qc4 18.Qh5 Ne5 19.f4 Nc6 20.Nxc6 = (-0.19) Depth: 17 00:03:15 122403kN 15.Nd5! = (0.17) Depth: 17 00:08:28 303204kN (Blass, Tel-aviv 01.10.2001) Uri
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