Author: Uri Blass
Date: 04:43:43 10/01/01
Go up one level in this thread
On October 01, 2001 at 07:02:03, Uri Blass wrote: >On September 30, 2001 at 19:33:38, Slater Wold wrote: > >>On September 30, 2001 at 18:22:25, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>1)Junior7 also play good sacrifices that other programs do not consider so it is >>>not clear if the alternative not to let it to do it is better. >> >>I agree. I have seen it execute some very great sacrifices....... >> >>> >>>Amir(the programmer of Junior) explained that Juior knows no better way and >>>it means that doing it more materialistic is going to be counter productive(of >>>course there are cases when it is going to be productive but there are more >>>cases when it is going to be counter productive). >> >>I understand. It's asking the computer to see further than it can see. But >>from what I've seen, it seems to be a lot more productive, than counter >>productive. Because I believe (my) DJ7 wins a lot more than it loses. >> >>> >>>2)I have also an example from one of my correspondence games when Junior >>>hesitates if to sacrifice a piece for 3 pawns(it wants to sacrifice a piece >>>after some time but after more time changes it's mind). >> >>I believe that in an endgame, this might not be a bad idea, or at least >>considers some thought. (DF is KNOWN for sac'ing pieces for pawns, in the >>endgame.) But on move 10, it's dangerous. There is _no_ clear advatange, even >>in DJ7's mainline, to trade the N for 3 p's. >> >>> >>>Deep Fritz in that example likes to sacrifice and it can see a clear advantage >>>but it is not clear if the sacrifice is correct or not correct(I chose to >>>sacrifice the piece and we are already some moves after it). >> >>Hard to agree or disagree, without a position. :) >> >>> >>>I may post the game later and I do not want to discuss this question here before >>>the game ends. >> >>I would be very interested. Please do. >> >>> >>>The game is from the championship of Israel in correspondence games and >>>I have 4 out of 5 in the finished games and 3 unfinished games. >>> >>>I have a winning position in 2 out of 3 of my games and the game that I talk >>>about is the only game when I do not feel sure about the result after correct >>>play of both sides. >>> >>>Note that I tried engine-engine games before deciding about the sacrifice and >>>the only thing that I can tell is that there were no draws in these games and >>>none of these games were leading to the position that is today some moves after >>>the sacrifice. >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>I look forward to seeing these games! >> >> > >I cannot post the full game now but I think that I can safely post position >from move 15 of the game(we are at move 34) when I decided not to sacrifice a >piece inspite of the fact that Deep fritz asked me to sacrifice the piece > >I chose the quiet move 15.Bf1 that was suggested by the tigers(I did not have >Deep Fritz interface for the tigers at that time but I copied the line of tiger >and saved them) > >Uri blass - Yoav dothan >[D]r4r1k/1bqnbpp1/p2ppn1p/1p6/3NP3/P1N4Q/1PP1BPPP/2BRR1K1 w - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Deep Fritz: > >15.Qxe6-- > -+ (-3.50) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/15 00:00:00 3kN >15.Bd3 Ne5 16.Bf4 Rfc8 17.Qg3 > ² (0.34) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 12kN >15.Qe3! > ² (0.38) Depth: 5/17 00:00:00 15kN >15.Qe3 Rfc8 16.f4 d5 17.e5 Ne8 > ² (0.28) Depth: 6/22 00:00:00 52kN >15.Bd3! > ² (0.31) Depth: 6/25 00:00:00 70kN >15.Bd3 Ne5 16.Bg5 Kg8 17.Bf4 > ² (0.28) Depth: 7/23 00:00:00 173kN >15.Bd3 Ne5 16.f4 Nxd3 17.cxd3 d5 18.Qf3 dxe4 19.dxe4 Rad8 > = (0.19) Depth: 8/27 00:00:01 523kN >15.Be3! > = (0.22) Depth: 8/29 00:00:02 1378kN >15.Be3! Nxe4 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Kg8 18.Nxe4 Bxe4 19.Nxe6 fxe6 > = (0.25) Depth: 8/29 00:00:02 1432kN >15.Be3 Rad8 16.Bg5 Kg8 17.Bh4 Ne5 18.Qe3 d5 19.f4 > = (0.19) Depth: 9/32 00:00:05 2957kN >15.Bd3! > = (0.22) Depth: 9/32 00:00:06 3248kN >15.Bf3! > = (0.25) Depth: 9/32 00:00:08 4352kN >15.Bf3 Ne5 16.Bf4 Nc4 17.e5 dxe5 18.Bxe5 Qb6 19.Bxb7 Qxb7 20.Rb1 Rad8 > = (0.03) Depth: 10/32 00:00:12 6718kN >15.Bd3! > = (0.06) Depth: 10/32 00:00:12 6857kN >15.Bd3! Rac8 16.Qg3 Ne5 17.Be3 Nc4 18.Bxc4 Qxc4 19.Bf4 d5 20.f3 > = (0.22) Depth: 10/33 00:00:14 8094kN >15.Bd3 Nc5 16.Be3 Rfc8 17.f3 d5 18.exd5 Nxd3 19.Rxd3 Nxd5 20.Nxd5 > = (0.16) Depth: 11/36 00:00:59 32815kN >15.Be3! > = (0.19) Depth: 11/36 00:01:10 38445kN >15.Be3 Rfe8 16.Bd3 Nc5 17.Qg3 Nfxe4 18.Bxe4 Nxe4 19.Nxe4 Bxe4 20.Bxh6 Bg6 > = (0.19) Depth: 12/36 00:02:30 79293kN >15.Be3 Rfe8 16.Bd3 Ne5 17.Bf4 Kg8 18.Nf3 Red8 19.Nxe5 > = (0.16) Depth: 13/39 00:06:05 201799kN >15.Be3 Rfe8 16.Bd3 Ne5 17.f4 Nc4 18.Bxc4 Qxc4 19.e5 Nd5 20.Nxd5 > = (0.16) Depth: 14/44 00:16:35 575542kN >15.Be3 Rab8 16.Bg5 Rfe8 17.Bc1 Rbc8 18.Bf1 Nc5 19.f3 Qb6 > = (0.09) Depth: 15/43 01:02:11 2252600kN >15.Bd3! > = (0.13) Depth: 15/43 01:16:02 2761421kN >15.Bd3! Ne5 16.f4 Nc4 17.g4 d5 18.g5 Nxe4 19.Nxe4 > = (0.19) Depth: 15/45 01:51:41 4019251kN >15.Nd5! > = (0.22) Depth: 15/45 02:34:28 5613455kN >15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Ndf6 20.Nxg8 > ² (0.38) Depth: 16/46 02:59:49 6574760kN >15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Ndf6 20.Nxg8 Rxg8 > = (0.22) Depth: 17/45 04:03:25 9089131kN >15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Ndf6 20.Nxg8 > = (0.25) Depth: 18/47 06:52:40 15775110kN >15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Ndf6 20.Nxg8 Rxg8 > = (0.25) Depth: 19/49 18:23:32 43123576kN > >(blass, tel-aviv 03.04.2001) > >Gambittiger's analysis > >00:00:00.1 0.28 6 80734 Bf1 Ne5 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 exd5 >00:00:00.1 0.34 6 81216 Bf1 Qc5 Qf3 Ne5 Qf4 Nh5 >00:00:01.2 0.40 7 191652 Bf1 Qc5 Be3 Qc7 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 >00:00:01.3 0.34 8 314903 Bf1 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxe6 N7f6 Nxd5 Nxd5 Rxd5 >Bxd5 Qxe7 Qxc2 >00:00:04.6 0.30 9 670111 Bf1 Nc5 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Qh5 Bb7 Be3 >00:00:10.5 0.28 10 1673234 Bf1 Kg8 f3 d5 e5 Nxe5 Nxe6 Qb6+ Nd4 Bc5 Be3 >00:00:24.5 0.28 11 4118062 Bf1 Kg8 Be3 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Nh5 Qg4 Nf6 >00:01:25.2 0.20 12 15032529 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Qc5 Qf2 Kg8 Bf4 Nh5 Be3 >00:03:42.1 0.20 13 42530376 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Qa5 Be3 Nh5 Qg4 Nf6 Qh4 >Qe5 >00:14:29.0 0.20 14 167993884 Bf1 Ne5 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Qh5 Nd7 Be3 Bf6 >Bd3 Qe5 Qxe5 Nxe5 Be2 >00:28:43.8 0.28 14 323514398 f3 Nb6 Qg3 Nfd7 Rf1 Rfc8 Bf4 Nc5 Be3 Bf6 Qg4 Qe7 >Rf2 Nc4 >00:42:28.5 0.22 15 486274085 f3 Nb6 Qg3 Nfd7 Rf1 Bf6 Rf2 Rfc8 Bf1 d5 Qxc7 Rxc7 >exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Bf4 >03:04:52.1 0.22 16 -2035399277 f3 Bd8 Be3 Qc8 Nb3 Bb6 Bxb6 Nxb6 Na5 Nc4 Bxc4 >bxc4 Na4 Rd8 Rd4 d5 Nxb7 Qxb7 exd5 >05:52:59.4 0.26 16 -139113515 Bf1 Rfc8 g4 Kg8 f4 Nh7 Bg2 Qb6 e5 d5 Qg3 Rc4 Be3 >Bc5 Nce2 Qc7 >15:51:04.5 0.26 17 -967694180 Bf1 Rfc8 g4 Kg8 f4 Nh7 Qg2 Qd8 Re2 Bf6 Qf3 Qe7 Rg2 >Nc5 Be3 Nf8 g5 hxg5 fxg5 > >Tiger14's analysis >00:00:00.1 0.18 7 72478 f3 Ne5 Rf1 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Qg3 >00:00:00.2 0.08 7 152673 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Be3 Nf6 Bd3 >00:00:01.2 0.06 8 250574 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Be3 Nc5 Qh5 Bf6 Qg4 >00:00:03.5 0.04 9 491079 f3 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Be3 Nc5 Qg4 Bd6 g3 >00:00:06.0 0.06 9 1163956 Bf1 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxe6 N7f6 Nxd5 Nxd5 Rxd5 >Bxd5 Qxd5 Qxc2 Rxe7 >00:00:12.9 0.04 10 2114406 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Nd7 Be3 Bf6 Re2 >00:00:31.6 0.08 11 5438174 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Nd7 Be3 Bf6 Rd2 Nc5 >00:01:01.8 0.06 12 11034602 Bf1 Ne5 f3 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qg3 Nd7 Be3 Bf6 Rd2 Nc5 >Red1 >00:03:32.6 0.02 13 39053915 Bf1 Ne5 Qe3 Nc4 Qg3 Rfc8 Bxc4 bxc4 f3 Nh5 Qf2 Qb6 g3 >Nf6 >00:17:27.7 0.06 14 206800570 Bf1 Ne5 f4 Nc4 g4 d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 g5 Rg8 Bg2 >Bxg2 Qxg2 Bc5 gxh6 gxh6 >01:12:51.7 0.02 15 877173192 Bf1 Nb6 Bd3 Kg8 Qg3 Nh5 Qf3 Nf6 Bf1 Nc4 Qg3 Nh5 Qd3 >Bh4 Qh3 >02:15:22.9 0.02 16 1701341968 Bf1 Nb6 Bd3 Kg8 Re3 Nh7 Rg3 Ng5 Qg4 Bf6 Bf1 Nc4 h4 >h5 Qf4 e5 >07:05:55.7 -0.04 17 1172099456 Bf1 Ne5 f4 Nc4 b3 Nb6 Bb2 Kg8 Qg3 Rfd8 Re3 Nh5 >Qf3 Nf6 a4 bxa4 Nxa4 Nxa4 bxa4 >58:22:38.1 -0.02 18 1518540532 Bf1 Rfc8 g4 Kg8 f4 Nc5 Bg2 Nh7 e5 d5 Re2 Nf8 f5 >Bg5 Bxg5 hxg5 Qe3 Qd8 fxe6 fxe6 > >Uri Here is Junior7's analysis of the same position(I had not Junior7 at the time of the analysis) It also wants to sacrifice but the evaluation is negative and I suspect that it may change it's mind later I expect it to be faster on faster hardware and one of the reason is not the speed difference but the fact that it may jumps faster to depth 18. going from depth 15 to 16 to 17 to 18 is probably slower than going from depth 15 to 17 to 18 but when Junior does not know the target time it start to do small jumps of 1 after few minutes. It is possible to prevent this problem by using some long tournament time control before starting long analysis like 10 hours for 10 moves but Junior may give different analysis because of different contempt so it is possible that we need to change the contempt parameter in order to get similiar analysis(the default contempt of Junior for analysis is 0 when the default contempt for playing is 0.15 pawn). Uri Blass - Yoav duthan r4r1k/1bqnbpp1/p2ppn1p/1p6/3NP3/P1N4Q/1PP1BPPP/2BRR1K1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Junior 7: 15.a4 Bxe4 16.Nxe4 = (-0.17) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.f3 Qc5 = (-0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.Bg5 Bxe4 16.Nxe4 = (-0.07) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.Qd3 Qc5 = (0.04) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.Qe3 Qc5 = (0.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 15.Qe3 Rfc8 16.Bd2 = (-0.04) Depth: 6 00:00:00 2kN 15.Qe3 Ne5 16.Bd2 Qc5 17.h3 = (-0.21) Depth: 9 00:00:00 49kN 15.Bxh6! ² (0.26) Depth: 9 00:00:00 185kN 15.Bxh6! gxh6 16.Qxh6+ Nh7 17.h4 Nc5 18.h5 Nxe4 ² (0.35) Depth: 9 00:00:00 236kN 15.Bxh6 gxh6 16.Qxh6+ Nh7 17.g3 Bg5 18.Qh3 Nc5 19.Bh5 Nf6 ³ (-0.47) Depth: 12 00:00:03 2057kN 15.Qf3 Ne5 16.Qe3 Rfc8 17.h3 Qc5 18.f4 Nc4 = (-0.24) Depth: 12 00:00:03 2403kN 15.g4 Nh7 16.Nf3 Ndf6 17.Nd2 Ng5 18.Qe3 = (-0.10) Depth: 12 00:00:07 4767kN 15.Bd2 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 = (-0.06) Depth: 12 00:00:13 8753kN 15.Bd2 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Qh5 Rf8 19.Qh6 Bg5 20.Qh5 Qc5 = (-0.16) Depth: 15 00:00:25 16343kN 15.Nf3 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Qh5 Rf8 19.h4 Bf6 20.Qh6 Bxc3 = (-0.15) Depth: 15 00:01:17 48105kN 15.Bf1 Rfc8 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Qh5 Rf8 19.h3 Bg5 20.Be2 = (-0.13) Depth: 15 00:01:57 70849kN 15.Bf1 Rfc8 16.Qg3 Nc5 17.Qf3 Qb6 18.Bd2 e5 19.Nf5 = (-0.19) Depth: 16 00:02:58 102386kN 15.Rd3 Kh7 16.Rg3 Rfe8 17.b4 Rac8 18.Bd1 d5 = (-0.09) Depth: 16 00:07:39 264688kN 15.Rd3 Kh7 16.Rg3 Rfc8 17.Bh5 Nxh5 18.Qxh5 Ne5 19.h3 = (-0.19) Depth: 17 00:09:15 318567kN 15.Nf3 Nc5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.h4 Rg8 19.h5 Bf8 20.Qf4 Rc8 = (-0.15) Depth: 17 00:13:05 444448kN 15.Nf3 Nc5 16.Bd3 e5 17.Bxh6 gxh6 18.Qxh6+ Nh7 19.g3 Nxd3 20.Rxd3 Rg8 21.Nd5 Bxd5 = (-0.15) Depth: 18 00:20:37 702730kN 15.Nd5 exd5 16.Bxh6 gxh6 17.Qxh6+ Nh7 18.Nf5 Rg8 19.Nxe7 Rg7 20.exd5 Ne5 21.Nf5 Rg6 22.Qf4 Rag8 23.Ne3 Qe7 24.Bh5 = (-0.08) Depth: 18 00:29:36 1003204kN (Blass, Tel-aviv 01.10.2001) Uri
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