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Subject: Re: Commercial program strength vs. amateur program strength

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 00:22:06 12/21/01

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On December 21, 2001 at 01:31:46, Will Singleton wrote:

>On December 21, 2001 at 00:57:21, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On December 20, 2001 at 21:14:53, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>
>>>On December 20, 2001 at 19:54:48, Thomas Mayer wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi Christophe,
>>>>
>>>>> 2) My program as well as other commercial
>>>>> engines are using search techniques
>>>>> that have never been published.
>>>>
>>>>well, I think that is the main reason why they are stronger (among others,
>>>>better testing, more time etc.) and will stay stronger...
>>>>
>>>>But I think new techniques could be also discovered by Amateurs - not so long
>>>>ago you was also Amateur - and I am totally sure that you have VERY special
>>>>search techniques and pruning methods - else I do not understand the depths the
>>>>Tigers are reaching... It's really amazing to watch... :)
>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps some are using forward pruning techniques that are not
>>>>>> published anywhere.  The degree to which this affects their playing strength >> is debatable.
>>>>
>>>>>No it's not. It makes commercial programs clearly stronger.
>>>>
>>>>In my opinion, "correct" prunning is they best way to get stronger and
>>>>stronger... As you said - nullmove can't be everything... believe me, I am
>>>>searching, maybe I will find someday something... And I am totally sure all the
>>>>others are also searching... futility pruning for example is an idea, but I
>>>>don't use it myself because it don't seems to be a win for my engine... and
>>>>chess is complicate enough that there could be many many many ..... many more
>>>>ideas... prunning is always risky, but if you find a good and robust way, it is
>>>>overall a win... and I believe, YOU have found something and the others for sure
>>>>also... As long as chess programs evaluate 99,999% totally idiotic positions
>>>>there is a way to prune something away... The question is: HOW... :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>It's not that a have a special technique. It's that I have many of small
>>>techniques, each adding value to the engine.
>>>
>>>There is no "big thing" to find I think. But there are many small improvements
>>>to find. In the end you it makes a big difference.
>>>
>>>But there is no miracle. It represents years of work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Christophe
>>
>>I think that the time is dependent in the programmer and it is possible that a
>>programmer with more talent can do it in a few months.
>>
>>I agree that there are many things to find but I also tend to believe that there
>>is a big thing to find.
>>
>>Uri
>
>The big thing to find is faster hardware.  One can freeze his current prog, and
>in a few years it will beat every human on the planet.
>
>Will

No

I mean only to software improvement

I also do not think that beating every human in the planet is the final target
and most of the buyers of new engines already lose against the programs of
today.

I think that there will be always buyers for an engine that is 50 elo stronger
than the previous engine in comp-comp games.

Uri



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