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Subject: Re: more examples for search-based stupidity

Author: blass uri

Date: 08:39:38 06/14/98

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On June 14, 1998 at 10:39:16, Thorsten Czub wrote:

>On June 14, 1998 at 04:03:51, blass uri wrote:
>>you cannot see in the games thorsten posted that hxg5 is a mistake
>>without a search and if you have an evaluation function that say it
>>without search your program
>>can do mistakes in sacrificing when the opponent takes the material
>>and the initiative for it is not enough.
>>
>>Uri
>
>Thats typical. You reduce the games on hxg. But the problems came much
>earlier. This have all 3 games in common. Black oversaw major positional
>rules.

can you prove that the problems came much earlier?
can you win Junior or Virtualchess after Nd5 instead of hxg5?
maybe you are right I am not the best player in chess
(my fide elo is 2020) and I do not play the opening
in the games you posted.
>And I can name them to you if you don't know. I can make a list.
I am sure there are things I do not know about chess
but to name them to me is not enough to convince me
I must see games without tactical mistakes to be convinced.
hxg5 and c5 are tactical mistakes

for me a positional mistake is a mistake I cannot practically generate a
tree
that in every leaf my computer program understand it was a mistake.

>In the same way you say NO EVALUATION can see that hxg is shit, I can
>tell you that no search will find out that these positional blunders are
>shit.

I agree there are positional blunders no search will find out.
but I was not convinced that the these blunders were in the 3 games you
posted.

>
>So ! How can we come together. Not with you all denying that these
>"positional" mistakes are real ! Or that they don't care you. If you
>really believe in your ideology about these topics, than I am pleased to
>follow the development of your programs on the next championships and
>other tournaments.
>It will not work than. Overseeing major positional stuff will not lead a
>program to win.
>
>When 5K would have no chance against 300K, this is what some people say,
>and what I cannot reproduce, because cstal HAS a high chance to win
>against Fritz, why e.g. was Gandalf able to kill Fritz ? Gandalf was a
>slow program in the old days (before Jakarta) and was easily able to
>kill Fritz. I have sent the games to chessBase.

I do not say 5K have no chance against 300K
I believe 5K who know what to search can beat 300K who does not know
what to search (with the same evaluation function).

I am sure 5K with a different evaluation function has chance against
300K
I am sure cstal has a different evaluation function
(I do not know if better because sometimes it can do unsound sacrifices)
so I am sure Cstal has chance to win against top programs.
>
>Why do you deny things ? Why do you oversee facts ? Why do you want to
>be blind towards positional things ?

I did not say to be blind towards positional things
I said that in these games it was not the point.
and I said there is another important point of knowing what to search.

Uri



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