Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 14:38:40 06/30/98
Go up one level in this thread
On June 30, 1998 at 16:33:45, blass uri wrote: >On June 30, 1998 at 13:33:19, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On June 29, 1998 at 18:45:15, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>> >>>On June 28, 1998 at 20:24:15, jonathan Baxter wrote: >>> >>>>On June 28, 1998 at 20:06:52, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>So when i said: 18-20 ply is easy to do, then people laughed at me. >>>>> >>>>>Right now, diep gets after a day of search already 18-20. >>>>>It needs around 10k * 3600 * 24 = 840M nodes. >>>>> >>>>>That's with R=3 (for most programs R=2 and R=3 make no diff, but in >>>>>Diep it does), but nevertheless, this was considered *undoable* 2.5 years ago. >>>>> >>>>>Note that this is just with 60MB for hash, and at those slow levels >>>>>a doubling of hash give another ply because of the huge load factor. >>>>> >>>>>How opinions change. So 20+ ply for Diep is easily doable with 200M >>>>>nodes a second. In fact with say 1 gig for hashtables instead of the >>>>>60M i'm using now, i'll get 20 within few >>>>>seconds. >>>> >>>>Just to see how dumb this statement is: with enough forward pruning *any* >>>>program can search the full game tree and announce draw or win or whatever on >>>>the first move, for a stated "ply" of 200+. But unless it is always right, you >>>>can't claim it is searching to that depth. End of story. >>>> >>>>Jonathan Baxter. >>> >>>Forward pruning works ok, i compensate with extensions a *lot*. >>> >>>So if i'm getting 20 ply after 24 hours, then it really is 20 ply in normal >>>positions. It just prunes out some lines where you give directly a queen >>>away. I think that the chance that giving a queen away or something like >>>that wins the game is very little. No doubt that it'll look it'll search that >>>line at least 20-4 = 16 ply. >>> >>>Still. If i turn OFF forward pruning then i get this 20 ply easily with a huge >>>hashtable. Yet i don't HAVE such a huge hashtable, nor a PII-300. >>> >>>I have at maximum 60MB hash, which gives already a *huge* depth, >>>only some crap gets deleted last few plies. >>> >>>So i'm talking about a program that practical *gets* 20 ply, just >>>a very few positions where there is a 20 ply trick at least with giving away >>>material and stuff, *might* get missed. >>> >>>Note that my mating extensions do a rather good job. >>> >>>For example win at chess 141: >>> >>>4r1k1/p1qr1p2/2pb1Bp1/1p5p/3P1n1R/1B3P2/PP3PK1/2Q4R w Qc1xNf4 WinAtChess.141 >>> >>>00:00 113 1->1 -3.87 Rh4xf4 Bd6xf4 Qc1-c5 >>>00:00 517 1->1 -2.42 Kg2-f1 Re8-e2 >>>00:00 744 1->2 -2.39 Kg2-f1 Re8-e2 Bf6-e5 >>>00:00 3266 1->3 -2.42 Kg2-f1 Re8-e2 Kf1-g1 >>>00:01 14255 1->4 -2.48 Kg2-f1 Re8-e2 Rh1-h2 a7-a5 Kf1-g1 >>>00:03 41872 1->4 2.98 Qc1xf4 Qc7-d8 Bf6-e5 >>>00:04 53482 1->5 8.56 Qc1xf4 Qc7-d8 Rh4xh5 Qd8xf6 Qf4xf6 g6xh5 >>>00:16 202646 2->6 MATE06 Qc1xf4 Bd6xf4 Rh4xh5 g6xh5 Rh1xh5 Bf4-h6 Rh5xh6 Qc7-g3 >>>Kg2xg3 Re8-e2 Rh6-h8 >>>00:20 239812 3->7 MATE06 Qc1xf4 Bd6xf4 Rh4xh5 g6xh5 Rh1xh5 Bf4-h6 Rh5xh6 Qc7-g3 >>>Kg2xg3 Re8-e2 Rh6-h8 >>>quit >>> >>>Nolot #2 >>>r4rk1/pp1n1p1p/1nqP2p1/2b1P1B1/4NQ2/1B3P2/PP2K2P/2R5 w - - bm >>>Rxc5! >>> >>>00:00 188 1->1 -3.07 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 >>>00:00 210 1->1 -3.06 h2-h4 >>>00:00 211 1->1 -3.00 h2-h3 >>>00:00 226 1->1 -2.85 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Bg5xf6 >>>00:00 231 1->1 -2.82 Bg5-e7 >>>00:00 234 1->1 -2.68 Bg5-h6 >>>00:00 1384 1->2 -3.35 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d1 >>>00:00 1552 1->2 -2.85 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Bg5xf6 >>>00:00 1855 1->3 -2.85 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Bg5xf6 >>>00:00 3129 1->3 -1.50 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 Qf4-e3 >>>00:01 6845 1->4 -2.74 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 Bg5-f6 >>>00:02 23212 1->5 -3.08 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 Qf4-b4 Nb6-d7 Qb4-f4 >>>00:04 48858 2->6 -3.34 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 Qf4-b4 Nb6-d7 Bg5-f6 Nc5-d3 Rc1xc6 >>>00:09 116252 2->6 -2.80 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d1 Qb5-f1 Kd1-c2 Qf1-e2 Kc2-b1 Bc5-d4 >>>Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Qf4xd4 >>>00:20 244652 3->7 -2.80 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d1 Qb5-f1 Kd1-c2 Qf1-e2 Kc2-b1 Bc5-d4 >>>Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Qf4xd4 >>>00:33 399303 3->7 -2.27 a2-a4 h7-h6 Bg5xh6 Nb6xa4 Ne4xc5 Qc6-b5 >>>00:43 515515 4->8 -3.99 a2-a4 Nb6xa4 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Bb3xa4 b7-b5 Qf4-c4 b5xa4 Qc4 >>>xc5 >>>02:16 1655957 4->8 -2.76 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d2 Bc5-b4 Kd2-e3 Qb5xe5 Qf4xe5 Nd7xe5 >>> a2-a3 Bb4-a5 Ne4-f6 >>>04:01 2836391 5->9 -3.37 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d2 Bc5-d4 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Qf4xd4 Rf8-e8 >>> e5-e6 Nb6-d5 >>>06:42 4216433 5->9 -1.15 Rc1xc5 Nd7xc5 Ne4-f6 Kg8-h8 Qf4-h4 Qc6-b5 Ke2-f2 Nc5-d3 >>> Kf2-g2 Nd3-e1 Qh4xe1 Nb6-d7 Qe1-h4 h7-h5 Nf6xd7 Qb5xd7 >>>08:37 5197732 6->10 0.00 Rc1xc5 Nd7xc5 Ne4-f6 Kg8-h8 Qf4-h4 Qc6-b5 Ke2-e3 Qb5-d3 >>> Ke3-f2 h7-h5 Nf6xh5 Nc5-e4 f3xe4 Qd3-d4 Kf2-f1 Qd4-d3 Kf1-f2 >>>13:14 7548617 7->11 0.10 Rc1xc5 Nd7xc5 Ne4-f6 Kg8-h8 Qf4-h4 Qc6-b5 Ke2-e3 Qb5-d3 >>> Ke3-f2 h7-h5 Nf6xh5 Nc5-e4 f3xe4 Qd3-d4 Kf2-g2 Qd4xb2 Kg2-h3 Qb2-c3 Nh5-g3 Kh8- >>>g8 Bg5-f6 Qc3-c8 Kh3-g2 >>>33:30 18176564 8->12 2.65 Rc1xc5 Qc6xe4 f3xe4 Nd7xc5 Bg5-h6 Nc5xb3 a2xb3 Nb6-d7 >>>Bh6xf8 Ra8xf8 Ke2-e3 >>>59:01 31434222 9->13 2.47 Rc1xc5 Qc6xe4 f3xe4 Nd7xc5 Bg5-h6 Nc5xb3 a2xb3 Nb6-d7 >>>Bh6xf8 Ra8xf8 Qf4-g5 Kg8-g7 e5-e6 f7xe6 Qg5-e7 >>> >>>Nolot #10 >>>r1b2rk1/1p1nbppp/pq1p4/3B4/P2NP3/2N1p3/1PP3PP/R2Q1R1K w - - bm Rxf7 >>> >>>00:00 7 1->1 -4.06 Bd5xf7 Rf8xf7 Rf1xf7 >>>00:00 11 1->1 -4.05 Bd5xb7 Bc8xb7 >>>00:00 35 1->1 -3.94 Rf1xf7 Rf8xf7 >>>00:00 52 1->1 0.06 Nd4-f5 >>>00:00 176 1->2 -0.32 Nd4-f5 Be7-f6 >>>00:00 575 1->3 -0.34 Nd4-f5 Be7-f6 Ra1-b1 >>>00:00 1807 1->4 -0.60 Nd4-f5 Be7-f6 Ra1-b1 Nd7-e5 >>>00:01 10307 1->5 -0.72 Nd4-f5 Be7-f6 Ra1-a2 Kg8-h8 >>>00:02 24729 1->5 -0.57 Qd1-d3 Be7-f6 Nc3-e2 Nd7-c5 Qd3xe3 Qb6xb2 >>>00:03 32869 2->6 -0.58 Qd1-d3 Be7-f6 Nc3-e2 Bf6-g5 Nd4-b3 >>>00:07 83015 2->6 -0.33 Bd5-b3 Be7-f6 Nc3-d5 Qb6-c5 c2-c3 Bf6-g5 >>>00:10 119222 3->7 -0.17 Bd5-b3 Qb6-c5 Nc3-d5 Be7-g5 a4-a5 >>>00:27 342429 4->8 -0.13 Bd5-b3 Be7-f6 Nc3-d5 Qb6-c5 c2-c3 Bf6-g5 a4-a5 >>>01:08 855177 5->9 0.04 Bd5-b3 Be7-g5 Nc3-d5 Qb6-a5 Qd1-h5 Qa5-d8 Nd4-f5 g7-g6 Nf >>>5xd6 >>>02:40 2043189 6->10 0.12 Bd5-b3 Be7-f6 Nc3-d5 Qb6-a7 c2-c3 Bf6-g5 Qd1-h5 h7-h6 a >>>4-a5 >>>08:18 5325215 7->11 -0.01 Bd5-b3 Be7-g5 Nc3-d5 Qb6-d8 Nd4-f5 Nd7-c5 Nf5xe3 Bg5xe >>>3 Nd5xe3 Bc8-e6 Bb3xe6 >>>22:41 13898604 7->11 0.23 Rf1xf7 Rf8xf7 Bd5xf7 Kg8xf7 Qd1-h5 Kf7-g8 Qh5-e8 Be7-f >>>8 Nc3-d5 Qb6xd4 Nd5-e7 Kg8-h8 Ra1-f1 Qd4-f6 Rf1xf6 g7xf6 Ne7xc8 >>> >>>Try that at other programs. Diep sees Rxf7 at 11 ply which is so called >>>selective and I did NOT make any adjustments to find Rxf7. >>> >>>Some versions even found it earlier than this 11 ply, and >>>i bet that Deep Blue doesn't get it at 11 ply, although it needs >>>special processors and SP hardware in order to get 11 ply. >>> >>>Vincent >> >> >> >>Since you posted this, I thought a quick response would be in order. Bruce >>has the original data, but deep thought found this move in 2 minutes. It is >>over 100 times slower than deep blue, which puts it at about 1 second to find >>this. Quite a lousy program wouldn't you say? Deep thought also got it at >>a much shallower depth than 11 ply. Let's let Bruce fill in the blank as I >>didn't save the original discussion. But once again, you are off not just by >>a little, but by orders of magnitude... which is getting pretty typical when >>you use the term "deep blue" without having a clue about how the machine >>functions or what it does. >Junior4.6 and fritz5 could not solve the last position in a reasonable time. >I gave Junior4.6 2 hours on my pentium200MMX and it could not find Rxf7 >I gave Fritz5 30 minutes and it could not find the right move. > >I do not understand how deepthought could find the move in 2 minutes >when deeperblue could not find the draw in the position of the second game >kasparov resigned. >I do not think it is more difficult to see the draw in the position kasparov >resigned than to see Rxf7. > >Uri it's *easy*. The forced draw is *60* plies from the root position. Not 10, not 30, but a full 60 plies deep. I believe that Ed had the analysis on his home page for a while. So *no* one sees that draw, because it is too deep. A human analyzes that draw a little differently, recognizing that the king can't get out of the box and gets checked forever... but a computer doesn't realize that until it actually does it. However, as far as deep thought finding it in 2 minutes, remember, I have tried to explain here many times just how fast and deep they search. But everyone listens to the bogus assumptions made by people like Vincent, and draw the wrong conclusions. DT and DB are not just strong, they are "strong as hell". This is but one example.
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