Author: blass uri
Date: 16:53:08 06/30/98
Go up one level in this thread
On June 30, 1998 at 17:38:40, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On June 30, 1998 at 16:33:45, blass uri wrote: > >>On June 30, 1998 at 13:33:19, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On June 29, 1998 at 18:45:15, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>On June 28, 1998 at 20:24:15, jonathan Baxter wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 28, 1998 at 20:06:52, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>So when i said: 18-20 ply is easy to do, then people laughed at me. >>>>>> >>>>>>Right now, diep gets after a day of search already 18-20. >>>>>>It needs around 10k * 3600 * 24 = 840M nodes. >>>>>> >>>>>>That's with R=3 (for most programs R=2 and R=3 make no diff, but in >>>>>>Diep it does), but nevertheless, this was considered *undoable* 2.5 years ago. >>>>>> >>>>>>Note that this is just with 60MB for hash, and at those slow levels >>>>>>a doubling of hash give another ply because of the huge load factor. >>>>>> >>>>>>How opinions change. So 20+ ply for Diep is easily doable with 200M >>>>>>nodes a second. In fact with say 1 gig for hashtables instead of the >>>>>>60M i'm using now, i'll get 20 within few >>>>>>seconds. >>>>> >>>>>Just to see how dumb this statement is: with enough forward pruning *any* >>>>>program can search the full game tree and announce draw or win or whatever on >>>>>the first move, for a stated "ply" of 200+. But unless it is always right, you >>>>>can't claim it is searching to that depth. End of story. >>>>> >>>>>Jonathan Baxter. >>>> >>>>Forward pruning works ok, i compensate with extensions a *lot*. >>>> >>>>So if i'm getting 20 ply after 24 hours, then it really is 20 ply in normal >>>>positions. It just prunes out some lines where you give directly a queen >>>>away. I think that the chance that giving a queen away or something like >>>>that wins the game is very little. No doubt that it'll look it'll search that >>>>line at least 20-4 = 16 ply. >>>> >>>>Still. If i turn OFF forward pruning then i get this 20 ply easily with a huge >>>>hashtable. Yet i don't HAVE such a huge hashtable, nor a PII-300. >>>> >>>>I have at maximum 60MB hash, which gives already a *huge* depth, >>>>only some crap gets deleted last few plies. >>>> >>>>So i'm talking about a program that practical *gets* 20 ply, just >>>>a very few positions where there is a 20 ply trick at least with giving away >>>>material and stuff, *might* get missed. >>>> >>>>Note that my mating extensions do a rather good job. >>>> >>>>For example win at chess 141: >>>> >>>>4r1k1/p1qr1p2/2pb1Bp1/1p5p/3P1n1R/1B3P2/PP3PK1/2Q4R w Qc1xNf4 WinAtChess.141 >>>> >>>>00:00 113 1->1 -3.87 Rh4xf4 Bd6xf4 Qc1-c5 >>>>00:00 517 1->1 -2.42 Kg2-f1 Re8-e2 >>>>00:00 744 1->2 -2.39 Kg2-f1 Re8-e2 Bf6-e5 >>>>00:00 3266 1->3 -2.42 Kg2-f1 Re8-e2 Kf1-g1 >>>>00:01 14255 1->4 -2.48 Kg2-f1 Re8-e2 Rh1-h2 a7-a5 Kf1-g1 >>>>00:03 41872 1->4 2.98 Qc1xf4 Qc7-d8 Bf6-e5 >>>>00:04 53482 1->5 8.56 Qc1xf4 Qc7-d8 Rh4xh5 Qd8xf6 Qf4xf6 g6xh5 >>>>00:16 202646 2->6 MATE06 Qc1xf4 Bd6xf4 Rh4xh5 g6xh5 Rh1xh5 Bf4-h6 Rh5xh6 Qc7-g3 >>>>Kg2xg3 Re8-e2 Rh6-h8 >>>>00:20 239812 3->7 MATE06 Qc1xf4 Bd6xf4 Rh4xh5 g6xh5 Rh1xh5 Bf4-h6 Rh5xh6 Qc7-g3 >>>>Kg2xg3 Re8-e2 Rh6-h8 >>>>quit >>>> >>>>Nolot #2 >>>>r4rk1/pp1n1p1p/1nqP2p1/2b1P1B1/4NQ2/1B3P2/PP2K2P/2R5 w - - bm >>>>Rxc5! >>>> >>>>00:00 188 1->1 -3.07 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 >>>>00:00 210 1->1 -3.06 h2-h4 >>>>00:00 211 1->1 -3.00 h2-h3 >>>>00:00 226 1->1 -2.85 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Bg5xf6 >>>>00:00 231 1->1 -2.82 Bg5-e7 >>>>00:00 234 1->1 -2.68 Bg5-h6 >>>>00:00 1384 1->2 -3.35 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d1 >>>>00:00 1552 1->2 -2.85 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Bg5xf6 >>>>00:00 1855 1->3 -2.85 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Bg5xf6 >>>>00:00 3129 1->3 -1.50 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 Qf4-e3 >>>>00:01 6845 1->4 -2.74 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 Bg5-f6 >>>>00:02 23212 1->5 -3.08 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 Qf4-b4 Nb6-d7 Qb4-f4 >>>>00:04 48858 2->6 -3.34 Ne4xc5 Nd7xc5 Qf4-b4 Nb6-d7 Bg5-f6 Nc5-d3 Rc1xc6 >>>>00:09 116252 2->6 -2.80 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d1 Qb5-f1 Kd1-c2 Qf1-e2 Kc2-b1 Bc5-d4 >>>>Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Qf4xd4 >>>>00:20 244652 3->7 -2.80 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d1 Qb5-f1 Kd1-c2 Qf1-e2 Kc2-b1 Bc5-d4 >>>>Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Qf4xd4 >>>>00:33 399303 3->7 -2.27 a2-a4 h7-h6 Bg5xh6 Nb6xa4 Ne4xc5 Qc6-b5 >>>>00:43 515515 4->8 -3.99 a2-a4 Nb6xa4 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Bb3xa4 b7-b5 Qf4-c4 b5xa4 Qc4 >>>>xc5 >>>>02:16 1655957 4->8 -2.76 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d2 Bc5-b4 Kd2-e3 Qb5xe5 Qf4xe5 Nd7xe5 >>>> a2-a3 Bb4-a5 Ne4-f6 >>>>04:01 2836391 5->9 -3.37 Bg5-h6 Qc6-b5 Ke2-d2 Bc5-d4 Ne4-f6 Nd7xf6 Qf4xd4 Rf8-e8 >>>> e5-e6 Nb6-d5 >>>>06:42 4216433 5->9 -1.15 Rc1xc5 Nd7xc5 Ne4-f6 Kg8-h8 Qf4-h4 Qc6-b5 Ke2-f2 Nc5-d3 >>>> Kf2-g2 Nd3-e1 Qh4xe1 Nb6-d7 Qe1-h4 h7-h5 Nf6xd7 Qb5xd7 >>>>08:37 5197732 6->10 0.00 Rc1xc5 Nd7xc5 Ne4-f6 Kg8-h8 Qf4-h4 Qc6-b5 Ke2-e3 Qb5-d3 >>>> Ke3-f2 h7-h5 Nf6xh5 Nc5-e4 f3xe4 Qd3-d4 Kf2-f1 Qd4-d3 Kf1-f2 >>>>13:14 7548617 7->11 0.10 Rc1xc5 Nd7xc5 Ne4-f6 Kg8-h8 Qf4-h4 Qc6-b5 Ke2-e3 Qb5-d3 >>>> Ke3-f2 h7-h5 Nf6xh5 Nc5-e4 f3xe4 Qd3-d4 Kf2-g2 Qd4xb2 Kg2-h3 Qb2-c3 Nh5-g3 Kh8- >>>>g8 Bg5-f6 Qc3-c8 Kh3-g2 >>>>33:30 18176564 8->12 2.65 Rc1xc5 Qc6xe4 f3xe4 Nd7xc5 Bg5-h6 Nc5xb3 a2xb3 Nb6-d7 >>>>Bh6xf8 Ra8xf8 Ke2-e3 >>>>59:01 31434222 9->13 2.47 Rc1xc5 Qc6xe4 f3xe4 Nd7xc5 Bg5-h6 Nc5xb3 a2xb3 Nb6-d7 >>>>Bh6xf8 Ra8xf8 Qf4-g5 Kg8-g7 e5-e6 f7xe6 Qg5-e7 >>>> >>>>Nolot #10 >>>>r1b2rk1/1p1nbppp/pq1p4/3B4/P2NP3/2N1p3/1PP3PP/R2Q1R1K w - - bm Rxf7 >>>> >>>>00:00 7 1->1 -4.06 Bd5xf7 Rf8xf7 Rf1xf7 >>>>00:00 11 1->1 -4.05 Bd5xb7 Bc8xb7 >>>>00:00 35 1->1 -3.94 Rf1xf7 Rf8xf7 >>>>00:00 52 1->1 0.06 Nd4-f5 >>>>00:00 176 1->2 -0.32 Nd4-f5 Be7-f6 >>>>00:00 575 1->3 -0.34 Nd4-f5 Be7-f6 Ra1-b1 >>>>00:00 1807 1->4 -0.60 Nd4-f5 Be7-f6 Ra1-b1 Nd7-e5 >>>>00:01 10307 1->5 -0.72 Nd4-f5 Be7-f6 Ra1-a2 Kg8-h8 >>>>00:02 24729 1->5 -0.57 Qd1-d3 Be7-f6 Nc3-e2 Nd7-c5 Qd3xe3 Qb6xb2 >>>>00:03 32869 2->6 -0.58 Qd1-d3 Be7-f6 Nc3-e2 Bf6-g5 Nd4-b3 >>>>00:07 83015 2->6 -0.33 Bd5-b3 Be7-f6 Nc3-d5 Qb6-c5 c2-c3 Bf6-g5 >>>>00:10 119222 3->7 -0.17 Bd5-b3 Qb6-c5 Nc3-d5 Be7-g5 a4-a5 >>>>00:27 342429 4->8 -0.13 Bd5-b3 Be7-f6 Nc3-d5 Qb6-c5 c2-c3 Bf6-g5 a4-a5 >>>>01:08 855177 5->9 0.04 Bd5-b3 Be7-g5 Nc3-d5 Qb6-a5 Qd1-h5 Qa5-d8 Nd4-f5 g7-g6 Nf >>>>5xd6 >>>>02:40 2043189 6->10 0.12 Bd5-b3 Be7-f6 Nc3-d5 Qb6-a7 c2-c3 Bf6-g5 Qd1-h5 h7-h6 a >>>>4-a5 >>>>08:18 5325215 7->11 -0.01 Bd5-b3 Be7-g5 Nc3-d5 Qb6-d8 Nd4-f5 Nd7-c5 Nf5xe3 Bg5xe >>>>3 Nd5xe3 Bc8-e6 Bb3xe6 >>>>22:41 13898604 7->11 0.23 Rf1xf7 Rf8xf7 Bd5xf7 Kg8xf7 Qd1-h5 Kf7-g8 Qh5-e8 Be7-f >>>>8 Nc3-d5 Qb6xd4 Nd5-e7 Kg8-h8 Ra1-f1 Qd4-f6 Rf1xf6 g7xf6 Ne7xc8 >>>> >>>>Try that at other programs. Diep sees Rxf7 at 11 ply which is so called >>>>selective and I did NOT make any adjustments to find Rxf7. >>>> >>>>Some versions even found it earlier than this 11 ply, and >>>>i bet that Deep Blue doesn't get it at 11 ply, although it needs >>>>special processors and SP hardware in order to get 11 ply. >>>> >>>>Vincent >>> >>> >>> >>>Since you posted this, I thought a quick response would be in order. Bruce >>>has the original data, but deep thought found this move in 2 minutes. It is >>>over 100 times slower than deep blue, which puts it at about 1 second to find >>>this. Quite a lousy program wouldn't you say? Deep thought also got it at >>>a much shallower depth than 11 ply. Let's let Bruce fill in the blank as I >>>didn't save the original discussion. But once again, you are off not just by >>>a little, but by orders of magnitude... which is getting pretty typical when >>>you use the term "deep blue" without having a clue about how the machine >>>functions or what it does. >>Junior4.6 and fritz5 could not solve the last position in a reasonable time. >>I gave Junior4.6 2 hours on my pentium200MMX and it could not find Rxf7 >>I gave Fritz5 30 minutes and it could not find the right move. >> >>I do not understand how deepthought could find the move in 2 minutes >>when deeperblue could not find the draw in the position of the second game >>kasparov resigned. >>I do not think it is more difficult to see the draw in the position kasparov >>resigned than to see Rxf7. >> >>Uri > > >it's *easy*. The forced draw is *60* plies from the root position. Not 10, >not 30, but a full 60 plies deep. I believe that Ed had the analysis on his >home page for a while. So *no* one sees that draw, because it is too deep. I remember it is more than 40 plies but not 60 plies. a good program can see the draw by doing enough check extensions. I think that deeper blue designers did not do enough. > >A human analyzes that draw a little differently, recognizing that the king can't >get out of the box and gets checked forever... but a computer doesn't realize >that until it actually does it. > >However, as far as deep thought finding it in 2 minutes, remember, I have tried >to explain here many times just how fast and deep they search. But everyone >listens to the bogus assumptions made by people like Vincent, and draw the wrong >conclusions. DT and DB are not just strong, they are "strong as hell". This is >but one example. I agree about DB but I know Deep thought is not better than international masters.
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