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Subject: Re: What made Deep blue good? What will make programs much better now?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 20:21:06 07/08/02

Go up one level in this thread


On July 08, 2002 at 14:11:19, Christophe Theron wrote:

>On July 08, 2002 at 13:27:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On July 08, 2002 at 12:48:58, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>
>>>On July 08, 2002 at 11:34:36, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>>I too am a DB fan.  Just like Bob.
>>>>>
>>>>>But I actually agree with you here.  I don't think DB did anything
>>>>>*spectacular*.
>>>>
>>>>I totally disagree.  Their speed _was_ "spectacular".  And that was _the_
>>>>point of Deep Blue, after all.  Not the point everyone _wants_ to be the
>>>>point of deep blue, but _the point_ the team developed over 10 years...
>>>>
>>>
>>>Here is a crazy thought, why not simulate DB?
>>>Given all the papers, I think it should be possible to modify Craft to use the
>>>same eval and extensions. We turn off hashing, nullmove, SEE and whatever DB
>>>didn't have. Then we find a slow machine for Tiger and a super fast one for
>>>Crafty, so Crafty (in DB-mode) has a 200 nps fold advantage.
>>>
>>>Ok lot of work, but seems this is the never ending story :)
>>>
>>>-S.
>>
>>
>>This would be great if we had some of the DB guys helping.  Unfortunately,
>>while they revealed a lot about various parts of DB, there is no single
>>comprehensive source paper to use as a reference.  IE what are those 8,000
>>unique eval terms in DB (some of those terms actually represent a matrix with
>>multiple values so it is actually more complex than that)?
>
>
>
>Sorry but the "8000" includes every entry of every matrix.

Not according to the things I have seen written.  But it really doesn't matter
to me either way.  I don't have anywhere _near_ 8000 terms in my evaluation.
I don't have 1000 unique terms, even counting all the piece/square tables.



>
>It's like saying that a piece square table program is composed of 768 unique
>eval terms (64 squares x 6 piece types x 2 colors).

Even if that were done, that is only 10%.  What about the other 90%?  You
have a _lot_ of counting to go to reach 8000...


>
>If I count this way, I guess that Chess Tiger must have something like 50000
>unique eval terms... :-)
>
>
>
>    Christophe
>
>
>
>
>>  Ditto for some of
>>their search algorithms.  They have given lots of 'hints' about things, but
>>significant implementation details are not available.
>>
>>IE something like trying to build a F-1 by looking at it run around the track.
>>There are _significant_ details that are not readily apparent from such
>>observations...



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