Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 03:57:49 08/09/98
Go up one level in this thread
On August 08, 1998 at 19:16:57, Mark Young wrote: >On August 08, 1998 at 18:01:58, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 08, 1998 at 17:00:38, Leon Stancliff wrote: >> >>>Bob, >>> >>>I posted a reply to your previous message concerning standard GM vs computer >>>games. But since it was buried back a day or so ago, I decided to post a new >>>message. >>> >>>I would appreciate it very much if you can provide us with as many as a half >>>dozen or more of Kim Commons games vs computers at standard times. >>> >>>I will also add that your contribution to the dialogue on ICC is both >>>interesting and stimulating. >>> >>>Leon Stancliff >> >> >>here is the first "group" of 20 10 games Kim Commons played against Crafty on >>ICC. I simply took the games in order of play. There are more if you want to >>see them... >> >>Bob >> >Crafty Scored 7wins 2losses and 1 draw in the last 10 games played by IM >Commons.(i guess the last 10) This is a player who knows how to beat chess >computers, and I'm sure knows crafty as well as any player. And the games were >play at fairly slow time control for ICC. I find it hard to understand why you >think crafty is no better then 2400 at 40/2. I just can't see IM Commons playing >that much better at 40/2 and crafty just falling apart. I think crafty would >still win play IM Commons at 40/2. > > > I understand your "question". My answer is simply based on what I know about Crafty and what it "knows" about chess. Kim is quite strong. Most of the time, he plays "chess", the games are interesting, and anything can happen. On occasion, he plays "anti-computer" and it is *much* harder to beat him when he does. I'd suspect that in a real game, in a real tournament, I would not see some of these openings that castle opposite and both sides push pawns and so forth. But the real reason I stick with my opinion is that I can see all the things that an IM or GM knows about the game that Crafty doesn't. If I try to add all the special case stuff that the Deep Blue guys did, I'd run at 100 nodes per second, *if* I could figure out how to add the knowledge in the first place (assuming I could even quantify this "knowledge" of course.) IE in the second Rebel Anand game, I showed that position to a GM. He looked at it about 30 seconds and said this is easily either winning or drawing. I asked "do you really think those pawns can't be stopped?" (or something to that effect). There was a long pause, then a "no bob, you musunderstood... black is almost certainly winning, or at least is drawing, unless I have overlooked some forcing tactic that I don't see." So the GM "knew" that black was playing for a win, and could at least expect to draw, while every computer I have seen says white is better and would play right into that line. Does that sound like a GM program? Or does it sound like a program that is trying to use impressive tactical skills and a mediocre evaluation to cover up the weaknesses it really has? >>[Event "ICC 5 3 06/02/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.06.02"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "crafty"] >>[Black "Kingway"] >>[Result "1-0"] >>[WhiteElo "2867"] >>[BlackElo "2470"] >>[ECO "A44"] >>[NIC "OI.09"] >>[LongECO "Semi-Benoni (`blockade variation')"] >> >> 1. d4 c5 2. d5 e5 3. e4 d6 4. Nc3 Be7 5. Bb5+ Nd7 >> 6. f4 a6 7. Bd3 Bf6 8. f5 Bg5 9. Bxg5 Qxg5 10. Qf3 Qh4+ >>11. g3 Qe7 12. O-O-O b5 13. Rd2 Nb6 14. Kb1 Bd7 15. g4 h6 >>16. Nh3 Nf6 17. Nf2 c4 18. Be2 b4 19. Ncd1 a5 20. h4 Nh7 >>21. Qe3 Qd8 22. g5 Nf8 23. gxh6 Rxh6 24. h5 a4 25. Ng4 Rh7 >>26. h6 g6 27. fxg6 Nxg6 28. Rf1 Bxg4 29. Bxg4 Qc7 30. Rdf2 c3 >>31. Bf5 Nc4 32. Qg3 Nd2+ 33. Rxd2 cxd2 34. Bxg6 Rxh6 35. Bxf7+ >>{Black forfeits on time} 1-0 >> >>[Event "ICC 5 3 06/04/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.06.04"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "Kingway"] >>[Black "crafty"] >>[Result "0-1"] >>[WhiteElo "2475"] >>[BlackElo "2752"] >>[ECO "D43"] >>[NIC "QP.09"] >>[LongECO "QGD semi-Slav"] >> >> 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 e6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 c6 5. cxd5 exd5 >> 6. Bf4 Be7 7. e3 Ne4 8. Nxe4 dxe4 9. Nd2 Bb4 10. a3 Bxd2+ >>11. Qxd2 O-O 12. Bc4 Nd7 13. O-O Nb6 14. Ba2 Bg4 15. Rac1 Qf6 >>16. Rc5 Be6 17. Bb1 Bd5 18. Qc2 Qe6 19. b4 Nc4 20. Ba2 Nxa3 >>21. Bxd5 cxd5 22. Qa4 Nc4 23. Qb5 Rad8 24. Qxb7 Rd7 25. Qb5 f6 >>26. h3 Qf7 27. Ra1 Nb2 28. Qa5 Nd3 29. Rb5 f5 30. Ra3 Nxf4 >>31. exf4 Qe6 32. Rc3 Qd6 33. g3 Rfd8 34. Rc4 dxc4 >>{White resigns} 0-1 >> >>[Event "ICC 5 3 06/04/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.06.04"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "crafty"] >>[Black "Kingway"] >>[Result "1-0"] >>[WhiteElo "2757"] >>[BlackElo "2470"] >>[ECO "C05"] >>[NIC "FR.16"] >>[LongECO "French: Tarrasch, closed variation"] >> >> 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. Bd3 b6 >> 6. Ne2 Ba6 7. Bxa6 Nxa6 8. O-O Qc8 9. c4 c6 10. cxd5 cxd5 >>11. Nb3 Be7 12. Nf4 g6 13. Nd3 h5 14. Be3 Qb7 15. Qf3 Rc8 >>16. Kh1 Nb4 17. Nxb4 Bxb4 18. Bg5 Be7 19. Bxe7 Kxe7 20. Rfd1 Rc2 >>21. Rab1 Rhc8 22. Na1 R2c4 23. Qf4 Qa6 24. a3 Qb5 25. Qh6 a5 >>26. h3 R8c7 27. Kh2 Rc8 28. Qf4 Qc6 29. Nb3 Rc2 30. Rd3 a4 >>31. Rf3 Rf8 32. Na1 Rc4 33. b3 Rc3 34. bxa4 Rxf3 35. Qxf3 Qxa4 >>36. Qc3 Qc4 37. Qe3 Rc8 38. Nb3 Qa4 39. Nd2 Rc2 40. Rb4 Qc6 >>41. Nb1 Rc1 42. Rb3 Rc2 43. Qf4 Qc4 44. Rf3 f5 45. exf6+ Kf7 >>46. Qh6 >>{Black resigns} 1-0 >> >>[Event "ICC 5 3 06/08/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.06.08"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "crafty"] >>[Black "Kingway"] >>[Result "1-0"] >>[WhiteElo "2832"] >>[BlackElo "2471"] >>[ECO "A44"] >>[NIC "OI.09"] >>[LongECO "Old Benoni defense"] >> >> 1. d4 c5 2. d5 e5 3. c4 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. e4 Bh6 >> 6. Bxh6 Nxh6 7. Nf3 Kf8 8. Be2 Kg7 9. O-O f5 10. exf5 gxf5 >>11. Rc1 Qf6 12. Nd2 Nd7 13. Nb5 Nf8 14. Nc7 Rb8 >>{Black resigns} 1-0 >> >>[Event "ICC 5 3 06/08/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.06.08"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "Kingway"] >>[Black "crafty"] >>[Result "0-1"] >>[WhiteElo "2467"] >>[BlackElo "2836"] >>[ECO "B40"] >>[NIC "SI.43"] >>[LongECO "Sicilian defense"] >> >> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d3 Nc6 4. Qe2 Be7 5. g3 d5 >> 6. Bg2 Nf6 7. O-O O-O 8. e5 Ne8 9. Re1 f6 10. Bf4 g5 >>11. exf6 Bxf6 12. Be5 g4 13. Bxf6 Qxf6 14. Nh4 Qxb2 15. Qxg4+ Ng7 >>16. Nd2 Qxc2 17. Ndf3 Qxd3 18. Rad1 Qc3 19. Re3 Qf6 20. Qg5 Bd7 >>21. Bh3 c4 22. Ng2 Qxg5 23. Nxg5 d4 24. Re4 c3 25. Ne1 Rad8 >>26. Nxe6 Bxe6 27. Bxe6+ Nxe6 28. Rxe6 Rfe8 29. Rxe8+ Rxe8 30. Kf1 Nb4 >>31. a3 c2 32. Rc1 Rxe1+ 33. Kxe1 Nd3+ 34. Kd2 Nxc1 35. Kxc1 d3 >>36. f4 b5 37. g4 a5 38. Kb2 a4 39. f5 b4 >>{White forfeits on time} 0-1 >> >> >>[Event "ICC 15 15 07/05/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.07.05"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "crafty"] >>[Black "Kingway"] >>[Result "0-1"] >>[WhiteElo "2545"] >>[BlackElo "2480"] >>[ECO "C05"] >>[NIC "FR.17"] >>[LongECO "French: Tarrasch, closed variation"] >> >> 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. c3 c5 >> 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. Ne2 a6 8. b3 b5 9. Nf3 Be7 10. Be3 c4 >>11. bxc4 bxc4 12. Bb1 Rb8 13. O-O Qa5 14. Ng5 h6 15. Nf3 Nb6 >>16. Qd2 Bd7 17. Bc2 Na7 18. Bf4 Ba4 19. Bxa4+ Nxa4 20. Rfc1 Nb5 >>21. Rab1 Kd7 22. Qe1 Na3 23. Rxb8 Rxb8 24. Bd2 Rb2 25. Ng3 Rxa2 >>26. Nh5 Bf8 27. Nf4 Qb5 28. Qf1 Rb2 29. Ne2 Rb1 30. Qe1 a5 >>31. Bf4 Qb2 32. Rd1 Qc2 33. Bc1 Nb5 34. Rd2 Qb3 35. g3 Naxc3 >>36. Kg2 Bb4 37. Qf1 a4 38. g4 a3 39. Nfg1 a2 40. Rxa2 Qxa2 >>41. h3 Qc2 42. g5 Nxe2 43. Nxe2 Nc3 44. gxh6 gxh6 45. Ng1 Rxc1 >>46. Qxc1 >>{White resigns} 0-1 >>[Event "ICC 15 3 07/05/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.07.05"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "Kingway"] >>[Black "crafty"] >>[Result "1/2-1/2"] >>[WhiteElo "2477"] >>[BlackElo "2548"] >>[ECO "D31"] >>[NIC "QP.08"] >>[LongECO "QGD: Charousek (Petrosian) variation"] >> >> 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Qc2 Nc6 >> 6. Bf4 Nxd4 7. Qa4+ Nc6 8. O-O-O Nf6 9. e4 Bd7 10. exd5 Ne5 >>11. Bb5 Ng6 12. Bg5 O-O 13. Bxf6 Bxb5 14. Bxe7 Bxa4 15. Bxd8 Bxd1 >>16. Bxc7 Bg4 17. f3 Rac8 18. Bg3 Bd7 19. Ne2 Rfe8 20. Kd2 Ne7 >>21. Nd4 Rc4 22. Kd3 Rb4 23. b3 Nf5 24. Nce2 Nxg3 25. hxg3 Rb6 >>26. g4 Rd6 27. Nc3 b5 28. b4 a6 29. a3 f6 30. Rc1 Re7 >>31. Rd1 h6 32. Nb3 f5 33. gxf5 Bxf5+ 34. Kd2 Kf7 35. Nc5 g5 >>36. Rf1 Be6 37. Nxe6 Rexe6 38. Kd3 Rd8 39. Kd4 Rc6 40. Kd3 Kg6 >>41. Ra1 Kf5 42. Re1 h5 43. Re4 h4 44. Kd2 Rcd6 45. Kd3 Rc8 >>46. Kd2 Rcc6 47. Kd3 Rd7 48. Kd2 Kg6 49. Kd3 Rd8 50. Kd2 Rf6 >>51. Kd3 h3 52. gxh3 Rxf3+ 53. Kd4 Rc8 54. Re6+ Kh5 55. Rc6 Ra8 >>56. d6 Rxh3 57. Ne4 Rf3 58. Rc5 Rg8 59. d7 Rd8 60. Rxg5+ Kh4 >>61. Rd5 Rf7 62. Nc5 Re7 63. Nxa6 Rexd7 64. Rxd7 Rxd7+ 65. Kc5 Rd3 >>66. Kxb5 Rxa3 67. Nc5 Rg3 68. Kc6 Rg6+ 69. Kc7 Kg3 70. b5 Kh4 >>71. b6 Rxb6 72. Kxb6 >>{Game drawn because neither player has mating material} 1/2-1/2 >> >>[Event "ICC 15 15 07/06/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.07.06"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "crafty"] >>[Black "Kingway"] >>[Result "1-0"] >>[WhiteElo "2537"] >>[BlackElo "2499"] >>[ECO "A44"] >>[NIC "OI.09"] >>[LongECO "Old Benoni defense"] >> >> 1. d4 c5 2. d5 e5 3. c4 d6 4. e4 Be7 5. Nf3 Nd7 >> 6. Nc3 Ngf6 7. Be2 O-O 8. O-O Kh8 9. Ne1 Ne8 10. f4 exf4 >>11. Bxf4 Bg5 12. Qd2 Bxf4 13. Qxf4 Ne5 14. Nf3 Qe7 15. Nxe5 Qxe5 >>16. Qxe5 dxe5 17. Na4 b6 18. Nc3 Nd6 19. Rae1 Bd7 20. Bd3 f6 >>21. Re2 g6 22. Ref2 Kg7 23. Rf3 h5 24. Re3 h4 25. Be2 Rae8 >>26. b3 Re7 27. Nb1 f5 28. Nd2 f4 29. Rc3 g5 30. h3 Kf6 >>31. Kf2 Rg7 32. Bg4 Bxg4 33. hxg4 Ke7 34. Rh3 Ne8 35. Nb1 Nd6 >>36. Nc3 Kd7 37. Ke2 Kc7 38. Nb5+ Nxb5 39. cxb5 a6 40. bxa6 Ra8 >>41. a4 Rxa6 42. Rc3 Kd6 43. Rb1 Rc7 44. Rc4 Ra5 45. b4 Ra6 >>46. Kd3 cxb4 47. Rcxb4 Rb7 48. Ke2 Rb8 49. Rc1 b5 50. axb5 Rab6 >>51. Rc6+ Kd7 52. Rxb6 Rxb6 53. Kd3 Kd6 54. Kc4 Kc7 >>{Black resigns} 1-0 >> >>[Event "ICC 20 5 07/19/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.07.19"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "Kingway"] >>[Black "crafty"] >>[Result "1-0"] >>[WhiteElo "2488"] >>[BlackElo "2579"] >>[ECO "B40"] >>[NIC "SI.43"] >>[LongECO "Sicilian defense"] >> >> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d3 d5 4. Nbd2 Nc6 5. g3 Nf6 >> 6. Qe2 Qc7 7. Bg2 Nb4 8. Kd1 dxe4 9. Nxe4 Be7 10. Bf4 Qa5 >>11. Ne5 Nxa2 12. Nc4 Nc3+ 13. bxc3 Qxa1+ 14. Kd2 Nxe4+ 15. Bxe4 Qa6 >>16. Qh5 g6 17. Qh6 Bf8 18. Qg5 Rg8 19. Rb1 f5 20. Bf3 h6 >>21. Qf6 Be7 22. Qe5 g5 23. Be3 g4 24. Bg2 Kd7 25. Bxc5 Bg5+ >>26. Be3 Bxe3+ 27. fxe3 f4 28. Qxf4 Ke8 29. Qxh6 Rf8 30. Qg6+ Ke7 >>31. Qg5+ Ke8 32. Ke2 Rf5 33. Qg6+ Ke7 34. Qg7+ Rf7 35. Qxg4 Qa2 >>36. Rb2 Qa1 37. Qg5+ Kf8 38. Qc5+ Kg8 39. Qg5+ Kf8 40. Qd8+ Kg7 >>41. Rb5 Qxc3 42. Qg5+ Kf8 43. Qd8+ Kg7 44. Rg5+ Kh6 45. Qg8 Qf6 >>46. Be4 Qf2+ 47. Kd1 Qg1+ 48. Kd2 Rf2+ 49. Kc3 Qa1+ 50. Kb4 Qb1+ >>51. Kc5 Qb5+ 52. Kxb5 Bd7+ 53. Kc5 Rxg8 54. Rxg8 Rxc2 55. Kd6 Bc6 >>56. Bxc6 bxc6 57. h4 a5 58. Ne5 Kh7 59. Ra8 Rg2 60. g4 Rh2 >>61. h5 Rh3 62. e4 Kh6 >>{Black resigns} 1-0 >> >>[Event "ICC 20 10 07/23/1998"] >>[Site "Internet Chess Club"] >>[Date "1998.07.23"] >>[Round "-"] >>[White "Kingway"] >>[Black "crafty"] >>[Result "0-1"] >>[WhiteElo "2498"] >>[BlackElo "2581"] >>[ECO "C48"] >>[NIC "KP.03"] >>[LongECO "Four knights: Spanish, classical defense"] >> >> 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bb5 Bc5 5. Bxc6 bxc6 >> 6. d3 d6 7. h3 O-O 8. Bg5 Bb4 9. O-O Bxc3 10. bxc3 Qe7 >>11. Rb1 Be6 12. c4 Rfb8 13. Qd2 Rb6 14. Rb3 Rab8 15. Rfb1 R8b7 >>16. Qa5 c5 17. Rxb6 cxb6 18. Qe1 Bd7 19. Nd2 Qe6 20. Nf1 Nh5 >>21. Qd2 f6 22. Be3 f5 23. exf5 Qxf5 24. f3 Qg6 25. Kh2 Bc6 >>26. Qf2 Qe8 27. Ng3 Nxg3 28. Qxg3 Rf7 29. Rf1 Bb7 30. Rb1 Qa4 >>31. Rb2 Rf6 32. Qg5 Bc8 33. Bc1 Bf5 34. Bd2 Qa3 35. Bc1 Qa5 >>36. Qd2 Qa4 37. Qg5 Qd7 38. Bd2 Rg6 39. Qh4 Be6 40. Bg5 Qe8 >>41. Bd2 Bf5 42. Bg5 Bd7 43. Bd2 Bc6 44. Bg5 Qf7 45. c3 Bd7 >>46. Rd2 Bc6 47. Be3 Rf6 48. Bg5 Rf5 49. Be3 Qc7 50. Qg4 Rf7 >>51. Qg5 Rf8 52. Qg4 Qf7 53. Qg5 Qe8 54. Qg4 Bd7 55. Qh4 Rf6 >>56. Bg5 Rf7 57. Be3 Be6 58. Bg5 Bf5 59. Be3 Rf6 60. Qe1 Qg6 >>61. Qd1 Rf8 62. Qe2 Qf6 63. Qe1 Qe6 64. Qd1 Qe7 65. Qe1 Qf7 >>66. Qh4 Be6 67. Qe1 Qh5 68. Qg3 Rf6 69. Qg5 Qe8 70. Qh4 Bc8 >>71. Bg5 Rf8 72. Be3 Bf5 73. Qe1 Qc6 74. Qd1 Qd7 75. Qe1 Bxh3 >>76. Qh4 Be6 77. Kg1 Bf5 78. Qg5 Qf7 79. Kh2 Qe8 80. Kg1 Rf6 >>81. Qh4 Qe6 82. Kh2 Bg6 83. Qg5 Qe8 84. Kg1 Qa4 85. Qg4 Bf5 >>86. Qh5 h6 87. Kh2 Qa3 88. Qe8+ Kh7 89. Qb5 Qc1 90. Qb3 Qe1 >>{White resigns} 0-1 >>~
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