Author: Chessfun
Date: 14:44:13 02/08/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 08, 2003 at 13:31:01, Sandro Necchi wrote: >On February 08, 2003 at 08:22:22, Chessfun wrote: > >>On February 08, 2003 at 05:29:57, Sandro Necchi wrote: >> >>>On February 05, 2003 at 15:04:52, Chessfun wrote: >>> >>>>On February 05, 2003 at 14:36:01, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 14:21:11, Harald Faber wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 10:09:03, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 09:32:50, Harald Faber wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It seems to me that this result - and certainly some further results - should >>>>>>>>calm many people claiming that Shredder 7 is the strongest program or stronger >>>>>>>>than DeepFritz7+Fritz8. But they will never learn that SSDF testing on 2 PCs >>>>>>>>with pb-on and tournament time control is somewhat different than betatesting on >>>>>>>>one machine with g/60 or even less. >>>>>>>>So I admit that I feel confirmation for my sceptical attitude towards >>>>>>>>sensational results and reports which arise here frequently about several >>>>>>>>programs. :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Harald >>>>>>>>(Who cannot remember having seen miracles like new program/version topping the >>>>>>>>list with 50pts or more over the former leader) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>SSDF is testing with slow Athlon 1200 computers. Shredder is known as a slow >>>>>>>searcher and he is still relative slow. Shredder 7 lacks tactical ability. >>>>>>>Shredder 7 should do much better on fast machines. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>This is a very old tale I cannot hear anymore. It has never been proven right >>>>>>and is always used as an excuse when some engine does not perform as some fans >>>>>>hope/expect. >>>>>>BTW, what is a "fast" machine for you? P4-2.5GHz? Do you know how much such a >>>>>>P-4 is faster than the A-1200? I tell you it is not as much as it might suggest >>>>>>if you only look at the numbers. It is even less than the advantage points for >>>>>>faster hardware could compensate the 14-22. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I dont think im a Shredder fan. I have Shredder 7, Fritz 7,8 and a lot of old >>>>>commercial chess programms plus some old chess computers. >>>>> >>>>>No, a P4 2.5 GHz is not a fast machine for CC. A dual MP 1900+ or 2000+ is. >>>>>of course Deep Fritz 7 would be stronger too, but I think it is more >>>>>important for Shredder 7 to play on a very fast machine. >>>>>btw, as you know 14-22 doesnt mean much. 40 games per match (SSDF) is IMO not >>>>>enough because chance (be lucky) plays an important role in CC. >>>> >>>> >>>>Sandro made no mention of needing a faster CPU than a A1200 when he posted here >>>>that Shredder 7 will be 50 points (I think it was) stronger than Shredder 6. And >>>>further that it will top the SSDF. >>> >>>Dear Sara, >>> >>>yes you are correct, BUT here is the complete story. >>> >>>1. Shredder 7 is stronger but has problems in the middle game when facing Deep >>>Fritz and Fritz 8 due to the different evaluation of the bishops and knights >>>mainly. >>>This makes very important the openings which are selected. If Shredder gets a >>>weaker position from the opening very hardly will win the game while with an >>>advantage sometimes it does sometimes it does not. >>> >>>2. We have told SSDF to test the UCI version and they did not. I am not going to >>>say anything anymore against SSDF because they simply do whatever they like. I >>>do not understand why they ask if they do the opposite. >>> >>>3. Theorically the UCI interface and the CB are with the same book, but >>>practically not. UCI book has 3 options: Tournament, standard and wide. CB only >>>2: standard (called tournament)and wide. The tournament option in UCI is more >>>restricted playing only the a to c moves while the standard play also d moves >>>even with a low frequency. >>> >>>The reason why the book is so wide in standard mode is because I have been asked >>>to do it this way. It is good because the variety is quite higher, but by >>>increasing the alternatives one increases also the weak variations and moves. >>>This means to loose games expecially against a strong program like Deep Fritz 7 >>>or Fritz 8 where the program is not able to recover a weak position. >>> >>>4. I have made a stronger engine in the middle game which should be scoring >>>better against Fritz 8 and deep fritz 7. It is called Shredder El Cid, however >>>it seems that against other programs may turns out to be weaker. This means that >>>to find out the real strenght of a program it is necessary to test it against >>>many different opponents and not make conclusions agains one specific opponent. >>>On such a large opponents the program should turn out to be about 50 points >>>stronger. >>> >>>I hope this clearify the matter. >>> >>>How are your testing going? >>> >>>Ciao >>>Sandro >> >>Hi Sandro, >> I myself must admit that I haven't looked at the games to see what >>Shredder 7 scores when it comes out of book. From games I have played and seen >>there is no doubt in my mind that this Shredder is the strongest version to >>date. This SSDF result I'm sure is a surprise to many. >> >>Maybe it would be a good idea to have CB have a hot key "use strongest settings" >>naturally though it would need to make sure it was using them, unlike as it >>seems on the playchess server where optimize book don't seem to work. >> >>Testing continues to go well, especially now I have faster computers but that >>naturally is a personal feeling. > >Hi Sara, > >Well, I am making about 3000 games a year at long time controls and I check them >all, so all this is not a surprise to me. >The wide variety on the books makes different results possible. > >I know this is the strongest Shredder version. There are no doubts still the >program that is giving us more problems is Fritz (Deep Fritz 7 and Fritz 8). > >Well, I have made very many changes in the book (I hope they are improvements) >and we have improved the program further. > >We'll see at Paderborn what we can do. > >I am planning to upgrade my hardware too, but I want to make a jump ahead, so I >am thinking about 2 dual Athlon64 3 to 4 gigaHz with huge memory, but I have to >wait a while... > >What do you have? I have 2 - AMD 2600's, 1 ghz mem. Still have two AMD A1200's but not using them. Sarah. > >Ciao >Sandro >> >>Sarah. >> >> >>> >>>> >>>>Sarah. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I dont think you can really say which program is the strongest today. >>>>>>>It's very close. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>This is indeed absolutely correct.
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