Author: Sandro Necchi
Date: 10:31:01 02/08/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 08, 2003 at 08:22:22, Chessfun wrote: >On February 08, 2003 at 05:29:57, Sandro Necchi wrote: > >>On February 05, 2003 at 15:04:52, Chessfun wrote: >> >>>On February 05, 2003 at 14:36:01, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>> >>>>On February 05, 2003 at 14:21:11, Harald Faber wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 10:09:03, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 09:32:50, Harald Faber wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>It seems to me that this result - and certainly some further results - should >>>>>>>calm many people claiming that Shredder 7 is the strongest program or stronger >>>>>>>than DeepFritz7+Fritz8. But they will never learn that SSDF testing on 2 PCs >>>>>>>with pb-on and tournament time control is somewhat different than betatesting on >>>>>>>one machine with g/60 or even less. >>>>>>>So I admit that I feel confirmation for my sceptical attitude towards >>>>>>>sensational results and reports which arise here frequently about several >>>>>>>programs. :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Harald >>>>>>>(Who cannot remember having seen miracles like new program/version topping the >>>>>>>list with 50pts or more over the former leader) >>>>>> >>>>>>SSDF is testing with slow Athlon 1200 computers. Shredder is known as a slow >>>>>>searcher and he is still relative slow. Shredder 7 lacks tactical ability. >>>>>>Shredder 7 should do much better on fast machines. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>This is a very old tale I cannot hear anymore. It has never been proven right >>>>>and is always used as an excuse when some engine does not perform as some fans >>>>>hope/expect. >>>>>BTW, what is a "fast" machine for you? P4-2.5GHz? Do you know how much such a >>>>>P-4 is faster than the A-1200? I tell you it is not as much as it might suggest >>>>>if you only look at the numbers. It is even less than the advantage points for >>>>>faster hardware could compensate the 14-22. >>>>> >>>> >>>>I dont think im a Shredder fan. I have Shredder 7, Fritz 7,8 and a lot of old >>>>commercial chess programms plus some old chess computers. >>>> >>>>No, a P4 2.5 GHz is not a fast machine for CC. A dual MP 1900+ or 2000+ is. >>>>of course Deep Fritz 7 would be stronger too, but I think it is more >>>>important for Shredder 7 to play on a very fast machine. >>>>btw, as you know 14-22 doesnt mean much. 40 games per match (SSDF) is IMO not >>>>enough because chance (be lucky) plays an important role in CC. >>> >>> >>>Sandro made no mention of needing a faster CPU than a A1200 when he posted here >>>that Shredder 7 will be 50 points (I think it was) stronger than Shredder 6. And >>>further that it will top the SSDF. >> >>Dear Sara, >> >>yes you are correct, BUT here is the complete story. >> >>1. Shredder 7 is stronger but has problems in the middle game when facing Deep >>Fritz and Fritz 8 due to the different evaluation of the bishops and knights >>mainly. >>This makes very important the openings which are selected. If Shredder gets a >>weaker position from the opening very hardly will win the game while with an >>advantage sometimes it does sometimes it does not. >> >>2. We have told SSDF to test the UCI version and they did not. I am not going to >>say anything anymore against SSDF because they simply do whatever they like. I >>do not understand why they ask if they do the opposite. >> >>3. Theorically the UCI interface and the CB are with the same book, but >>practically not. UCI book has 3 options: Tournament, standard and wide. CB only >>2: standard (called tournament)and wide. The tournament option in UCI is more >>restricted playing only the a to c moves while the standard play also d moves >>even with a low frequency. >> >>The reason why the book is so wide in standard mode is because I have been asked >>to do it this way. It is good because the variety is quite higher, but by >>increasing the alternatives one increases also the weak variations and moves. >>This means to loose games expecially against a strong program like Deep Fritz 7 >>or Fritz 8 where the program is not able to recover a weak position. >> >>4. I have made a stronger engine in the middle game which should be scoring >>better against Fritz 8 and deep fritz 7. It is called Shredder El Cid, however >>it seems that against other programs may turns out to be weaker. This means that >>to find out the real strenght of a program it is necessary to test it against >>many different opponents and not make conclusions agains one specific opponent. >>On such a large opponents the program should turn out to be about 50 points >>stronger. >> >>I hope this clearify the matter. >> >>How are your testing going? >> >>Ciao >>Sandro > >Hi Sandro, > I myself must admit that I haven't looked at the games to see what >Shredder 7 scores when it comes out of book. From games I have played and seen >there is no doubt in my mind that this Shredder is the strongest version to >date. This SSDF result I'm sure is a surprise to many. > >Maybe it would be a good idea to have CB have a hot key "use strongest settings" >naturally though it would need to make sure it was using them, unlike as it >seems on the playchess server where optimize book don't seem to work. > >Testing continues to go well, especially now I have faster computers but that >naturally is a personal feeling. Hi Sara, Well, I am making about 3000 games a year at long time controls and I check them all, so all this is not a surprise to me. The wide variety on the books makes different results possible. I know this is the strongest Shredder version. There are no doubts still the program that is giving us more problems is Fritz (Deep Fritz 7 and Fritz 8). Well, I have made very many changes in the book (I hope they are improvements) and we have improved the program further. We'll see at Paderborn what we can do. I am planning to upgrade my hardware too, but I want to make a jump ahead, so I am thinking about 2 dual Athlon64 3 to 4 gigaHz with huge memory, but I have to wait a while... What do you have? Ciao Sandro > >Sarah. > > >> >>> >>>Sarah. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I dont think you can really say which program is the strongest today. >>>>>>It's very close. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>This is indeed absolutely correct.
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