Author: Chessfun
Date: 05:22:22 02/08/03
Go up one level in this thread
On February 08, 2003 at 05:29:57, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>On February 05, 2003 at 15:04:52, Chessfun wrote:
>
>>On February 05, 2003 at 14:36:01, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>
>>>On February 05, 2003 at 14:21:11, Harald Faber wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 10:09:03, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On February 05, 2003 at 09:32:50, Harald Faber wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>It seems to me that this result - and certainly some further results - should
>>>>>>calm many people claiming that Shredder 7 is the strongest program or stronger
>>>>>>than DeepFritz7+Fritz8. But they will never learn that SSDF testing on 2 PCs
>>>>>>with pb-on and tournament time control is somewhat different than betatesting on
>>>>>>one machine with g/60 or even less.
>>>>>>So I admit that I feel confirmation for my sceptical attitude towards
>>>>>>sensational results and reports which arise here frequently about several
>>>>>>programs. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Harald
>>>>>>(Who cannot remember having seen miracles like new program/version topping the
>>>>>>list with 50pts or more over the former leader)
>>>>>
>>>>>SSDF is testing with slow Athlon 1200 computers. Shredder is known as a slow
>>>>>searcher and he is still relative slow. Shredder 7 lacks tactical ability.
>>>>>Shredder 7 should do much better on fast machines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This is a very old tale I cannot hear anymore. It has never been proven right
>>>>and is always used as an excuse when some engine does not perform as some fans
>>>>hope/expect.
>>>>BTW, what is a "fast" machine for you? P4-2.5GHz? Do you know how much such a
>>>>P-4 is faster than the A-1200? I tell you it is not as much as it might suggest
>>>>if you only look at the numbers. It is even less than the advantage points for
>>>>faster hardware could compensate the 14-22.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I dont think im a Shredder fan. I have Shredder 7, Fritz 7,8 and a lot of old
>>>commercial chess programms plus some old chess computers.
>>>
>>>No, a P4 2.5 GHz is not a fast machine for CC. A dual MP 1900+ or 2000+ is.
>>>of course Deep Fritz 7 would be stronger too, but I think it is more
>>>important for Shredder 7 to play on a very fast machine.
>>>btw, as you know 14-22 doesnt mean much. 40 games per match (SSDF) is IMO not
>>>enough because chance (be lucky) plays an important role in CC.
>>
>>
>>Sandro made no mention of needing a faster CPU than a A1200 when he posted here
>>that Shredder 7 will be 50 points (I think it was) stronger than Shredder 6. And
>>further that it will top the SSDF.
>
>Dear Sara,
>
>yes you are correct, BUT here is the complete story.
>
>1. Shredder 7 is stronger but has problems in the middle game when facing Deep
>Fritz and Fritz 8 due to the different evaluation of the bishops and knights
>mainly.
>This makes very important the openings which are selected. If Shredder gets a
>weaker position from the opening very hardly will win the game while with an
>advantage sometimes it does sometimes it does not.
>
>2. We have told SSDF to test the UCI version and they did not. I am not going to
>say anything anymore against SSDF because they simply do whatever they like. I
>do not understand why they ask if they do the opposite.
>
>3. Theorically the UCI interface and the CB are with the same book, but
>practically not. UCI book has 3 options: Tournament, standard and wide. CB only
>2: standard (called tournament)and wide. The tournament option in UCI is more
>restricted playing only the a to c moves while the standard play also d moves
>even with a low frequency.
>
>The reason why the book is so wide in standard mode is because I have been asked
>to do it this way. It is good because the variety is quite higher, but by
>increasing the alternatives one increases also the weak variations and moves.
>This means to loose games expecially against a strong program like Deep Fritz 7
>or Fritz 8 where the program is not able to recover a weak position.
>
>4. I have made a stronger engine in the middle game which should be scoring
>better against Fritz 8 and deep fritz 7. It is called Shredder El Cid, however
>it seems that against other programs may turns out to be weaker. This means that
>to find out the real strenght of a program it is necessary to test it against
>many different opponents and not make conclusions agains one specific opponent.
>On such a large opponents the program should turn out to be about 50 points
>stronger.
>
>I hope this clearify the matter.
>
>How are your testing going?
>
>Ciao
>Sandro
Hi Sandro,
I myself must admit that I haven't looked at the games to see what
Shredder 7 scores when it comes out of book. From games I have played and seen
there is no doubt in my mind that this Shredder is the strongest version to
date. This SSDF result I'm sure is a surprise to many.
Maybe it would be a good idea to have CB have a hot key "use strongest settings"
naturally though it would need to make sure it was using them, unlike as it
seems on the playchess server where optimize book don't seem to work.
Testing continues to go well, especially now I have faster computers but that
naturally is a personal feeling.
Sarah.
>
>>
>>Sarah.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I dont think you can really say which program is the strongest today.
>>>>>It's very close.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This is indeed absolutely correct.
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