Computer Chess Club Archives


Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: Weak-chain argument (How fatal are weaknesses)

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 18:48:25 02/16/03

Go up one level in this thread


On February 16, 2003 at 13:58:19, Rolf Tueschen wrote:

>On February 16, 2003 at 12:14:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On February 16, 2003 at 06:46:33, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>
>>>On February 15, 2003 at 22:17:52, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 15, 2003 at 14:52:10, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On February 15, 2003 at 14:34:31, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Answer me this, What Difference Does it make if you play more
>>>>>>>positional chess, if you cannot defeated me??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If that were the case, I would agree.  But by the same token, do you want
>>>>>>your program to play 30 brilliant moves and one lemon move, over and over?
>>>>>>That one lemon will drag your performance _way_ down at the top of the rating
>>>>>>scale.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Bob, may I point out with humility that this is exactly my weak-chain argument?
>>>>>Finally we are on the point. Did you ever reflect what would happen if
>>>>>
>>>>> - in a really recompensating money atmosphere and
>>>>>
>>>>> - after top players adopted specific comp related chess?
>>>>>
>>>>>And that on the base of a known permanent weakness?
>>>>>
>>>>>That is the point. And not the typical hype based on show events /commercials.
>>>>>
>>>>>What is you impression with the GM play on ICC? But note, Roman D. had to face
>>>>>an always changed version [on the base of his own hints]. Guess what will happen
>>>>>if several top GM work hard on a counter strategy against comps, in other words
>>>>>if GM adopt 'Eduard'...
>>>>>
>>>>>Only then, and that is my argument since long, the actual commercial progs begin
>>>>>to SUCK. But on a permanent base!
>>>>>
>>>>>My questions to Amir went a bit in the same direction. Let's see how far the
>>>>>experts can open their mind.
>>>>>
>>>>>Rolf Tueschen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The question is "too hard" for someone that is _not doing this_.  IE who can
>>>>say what a top GM player would do when folks start waving a million bucks
>>>>around?  IE would he try to stomp the program and end the matches for years?
>>>>Would he intentionally "play down" to guarantee another million dollar match
>>>>next year?
>>>>
>>>>I'm not capable or qualified to answer that...
>>>>
>>>>And anything I might say would be absolute 100% speculation.
>>>
>>>
>>>But - you are qualified enough, perhaps the best qualified in the field, to
>>>judge the actual strength of the progs in relation to GM and their chess. Say,
>>>the GM would run wild and were determined to kill, would they succeed or not,
>>>that is the question, NOT would they really want that or would they do it.
>>>
>>>I know the answer from all what you said. But you want to hide it? For what
>>>sensible goal? Do you want to avoid the deception of computerchess lovers
>>>worldwide? Or don't you want to harm the future show events?
>>>
>>>
>>>Rolf Tueschen
>>
>>
>>The answer is "none of the above."  I'm not willing to speculate about things
>>that I ultimately have no way of proving.  IE how can I prove what he was
>>thinking and what his motivation was?  And without any way to prove/disprove
>>anything, I don't see how my comments could help, although they could
>>certainly hurt.
>
>:)
>
>I have a very simple question without speculations. How fatal are the actual
>weaknesses of computer programs?
>
>A) against players like Eduard
>
>B) against Super-GM

This is simply too hard to answer.  It is about like asking the question
"how can we set rules so that a computer and a human play _equally_ without
one side having some unfair advantage?"

Computers and humans are so different, in such basic ways, that such a
question is impossible to answer.  Which means that trying to equate this
weakness of the computer against that weakness of the human is _really_ too
abstract to deal with (to me)...

>
>C) against a group of GM [playing them in tournament chess] who would
>concentrate on so called computerchess, here I agree I have a somewhat
>theoretical model in mind, namely the idea that they could develop a sort of
>strong anti-comp strategy, I am not talking about the actually known anti-comp
>of Eduard or tricks like Trojan or whatever.
>
>Rolf Tueschen



This page took 0 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.