Author: Matthew Hull
Date: 13:30:12 08/05/03
Go up one level in this thread
On August 05, 2003 at 16:22:57, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On August 05, 2003 at 14:19:16, Matthew Hull wrote: > >>On August 05, 2003 at 00:05:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On August 04, 2003 at 22:38:32, Matthew Hull wrote: >>> >>>>On August 04, 2003 at 11:20:56, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 04, 2003 at 01:11:07, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 03, 2003 at 16:33:41, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 03, 2003 at 15:05:23, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On August 03, 2003 at 00:33:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On August 01, 2003 at 22:53:17, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On August 01, 2003 at 22:51:00, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On August 01, 2003 at 19:07:21, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 00:31:17, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Distances they shot at in world war 1 and 2 with sniper rifles must have been a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>few hundreds of meters. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>In WW1 my grandfather was a sniper. He shot at ranges up to 1000 yards. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>In WW2 my father was a sniper. He shot at ranges up to 1000 yards. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Today, a neighbor down the street is a sniper. He shoots at ranges up to 1000 >>>>>>>>>>>>>yards. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>_nobody_ shoots a sniper rifle at ranges of "kilometers" today. "kilometer" >>>>>>>>>>>>>perhaps. With an occasional attempt at up to 2km with a big 50 cal "rifle". >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I have to disagree here. I read in the news back at the time that in the war in >>>>>>>>>>>>Afghanistan a Canadian military sniper got the world record for a sniper >>>>>>>>>>>>distance kill. He picked off some al-Qaeda guy from over 2.5 kilometers (over >>>>>>>>>>>>2700 yards) away. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Dave >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>What are you disagreeing with. I said "with an occasional attempt at up to 2km >>>>>>>>>>>with a 50 cal." >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>You just said that. :) It _is_ rare. And no sniper would say "I can produce >>>>>>>>>>>a 50% kill rate at 2KM+." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I guess I'm disagreeing with "up to 2km". :-) But then, I don't know what a 50 >>>>>>>>>>cal. is, and it's not a big deal to me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Dave >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>It's a gun that fires the 50-cal BMG (Browning Machine Gun) round, something >>>>>>>>>not much smaller than a coke bottle. Next best long-distance round is the >>>>>>>>>.338 Lapua round, but it is a _long_ way from the BMG round. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>i'm not sure when you did your tour of duty. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I didn't. But I _do_ shoot with former military types at our local range. And >>>>>>>as I said, my Grandfather was a sniper in WW1. And my dad in WW2. And I have >>>>>>>an active military neighbor that is a marine sniper, right down the street. It >>>>>>>was his .50 barrett that I shot and talked about. And they do _not_ practice >>>>>>>sniping at "many kilometers." There are _no_ optics to support that, for >>>>>>>example. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>But here 10 kilometers from here where the tanks and air mobile regiment is >>>>>>>>training they used to train with sniper rifles up to a few kilometers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>To 1000 yards, I'll agree with you. That is about a Km. Even to 2Km, I'll >>>>>>>agree although they _never_ shoot that far in real situations as it is simply >>>>>>>impossible to guarantee a hit. MOA accuracy is very tough to produce, that >>>>>>>means 1" at 100 yards, 10" at 1000 yards. 10" is not a "sure kill" target >>>>>>>size. >>>>>> >>>>>>Groups of less than 3" have been achieved at 1000 yards. Look here: >>>>>> >>>>>>"Bill Crawford fires a new IBS 1000 yard Light Gun record with a perfect score >>>>>>of 50 and a new record 5 shot group for this class of 2.766"! Wow! Nice shooting >>>>>>Bill! Bill used a Lilja .30 caliber 10" twist barrel to set this new record. " >>>>>>http://www.riflebarrels.com/winners/1000yards.htm >>>>>> >>>>>>3" is an easy headshot, and as you may have guessed a bullet to the head = >>>>>>fatal. So that = sure kill. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Hint: >>>>> >>>>>1. How many times has that been done? >>>>> >>>>>2. What were the conditions (weather)? >>>>> >>>>>3. How many shooters repeat that? >>>>> >>>>>As I said, 1000 yards is a "reasonable kill range". >>>> >>>> >>>>We have an M1869/71 Vetterli rifle that my grandfather picked up in WWI from a >>>>german sniper nest (41 cal. rim-fire). The adjustable sight has settings 1 >>>>through 10 which indicate hundreds of "paces", 10 being 1000 paces. >>>> >>>>Matt >>> >>>I have one of those. Rear peep sight. Even has two windage "wings" on the >>>rear sight. It actually works, although shooting at 1000 yards is a daunting >>>task. My grandfather was a WWI vet and brought it back with him. He gave it >>>to me when I was about 12 years old. >>> >>>Kicks a bit as I recall (I haven't shot it in 30+ years). >> >> >>Absolutely cool. We have never fired ours. Did yours have the center-fire >>conversion done to it? Ours does not. My understanding is that you'd have to >>custom make your own rim-fires otherwise. Also, ours is a M1869 with the >>loading gate. Is yours the same model? > > >I'm not sure about the model. But yes, it was a center-fire converted >model. I'm not sure how the brass was actually made/fire-formed/etc, as >it was given to me in a sack. :) I found this link on making center-fire ammo for the M1869/71 if you or yours ever want to. Apparently, it works quite well if you have the right equipment. http://www.militaryrifles.com/Switzerland/VetConversion/VetterliShooting.html Also, the other link below will help you identify your particular model. Regards, Matt > > > >> >>It is a somewhat interesting story how German troops came to possess and use >>these by-then-obsolete Swiss weapons. >> >>Matt >> >> >>> >>>> >>>>http://www.militaryrifles.com/Switzerland/SwissVet.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Anything beyond that is >>>>>not. To understand just look at the trajectory. The bullet will follow an >>>>>arc that peaks about 5 _feet_ above the final point of impact. The flight >>>>>time is ridiculous as well, giving mother nature (and the shooter's eyes >>>>>in judging wind and dealing with mirage) plenty of time to shift the point >>>>>of impact by _feet_. >>>>> >>>>>Note that the test you are talking about is _not_ done by a sniper. Those >>>>>guys get to fire test rounds to see what wind and mirage are doing. _then_ >>>>>they fire for effect. A sniper gets to fire one round. >>>>> >>>>>_BIG_ difference. >>>>> >>>>>I've done bench-rest shooting myself. And yes, you can do some amazing things. >>>>>But _not_ on the first round you fire. And if that is the _only_ round you >>>>>fire, look out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>in cold war, assuming sovjet invasion, assumed killing ranges of 2 kilometers >>>>>>>>here from snipers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>One shot out of 5-10, maybe. Snipers want "sure kills". And beyond 1000 >>>>>>>yards, there is no "sure kill" unless you drop a bomb with a bit larger kill >>>>>>>radius than a single projectile from a rifle/machine-gun. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Note that in world war II, they fought bigtime around here. the bullets didn't >>>>>>>>even get that far back then from snipers. This with exception of course from the >>>>>>>>heavy machine guns which already in WW1 could spread bullets to a kilometer or 2 >>>>>>>>when put on a hill. For WWII and actual fightings taking place here see for >>>>>>>>example 'operation market garden' which happened not too far from here and the >>>>>>>>movies belonging to it like: "a bridge too far". Majority of victims fell here >>>>>>>>however when the germans conquered netherlands. I'm 5 kilometers away from >>>>>>>>'Grebbeberg'. The only hill in Netherlands close to the Rhine river... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That's all well and good. .50's have been around forever. And they have a >>>>>>>staggering range. But not for single-shot look-through-a-scope sniper >>>>>>>operations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>My uncle who just died a few months ago, fought heavy at the Grebbeberg and his >>>>>>>>troops killed germans back there from distances up to a few inches. They used >>>>>>>>rifles made in 1895 for that with fixed bajonets, because accurate fire with >>>>>>>>rifles from those days wasn't very well possible. The german SS, but also the >>>>>>>>regular german army forces, who drove dutch civilians and prisoners in front of >>>>>>>>them when trying to conquer the Grebbeberg, only managed to conquer a few of the >>>>>>>>many kilometer deep positions because the defending forces had to shoot their >>>>>>>>own people first, before being able to shoot at the germans, which in that way >>>>>>>>they could get closer to the positions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I don't need to mention that every so many meters there was machine guns in the >>>>>>>>'grebbeberg' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The distances at which was fought in those first days of the second world war >>>>>>>>are in big contrast with nowadays. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>No idea what you are talking about. Wars aren't fought by snipers today, >>>>>>>either. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Not that the germans never conquered it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Only by threatening to bomb the cities they forced a surrender of Netherlands. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>When they would develop bullets for sniper rifles which can penetrate tank >>>>>>>>armour, then a few snipers would in 2003 be able to keep that Grebbeberg out of >>>>>>>>hands of the enemy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>There is _no_ sniper round that will penetrate a tank. a 50 will barely >>>>>>>pockmark a modern tank using depleted uranium armor plating that is the >>>>>>>equivalent of over a _meter_ of steel. _no_ shoulder-fired weapon will >>>>>>>touch that. Very few projectiles will touch that. Moving up to rockets >>>>>>>or bombs is the best hope. >>>>>> >>>>>>If fired from the rear of the tank some of the 20mm sniper rifle (and barret .50 >>>>>>caliber rifles) have been able to take down tanks using API ammo. Also, I have >>>>>>some tungsten cored 7.62x54R ammo. I personally have put it through 2" of steel >>>>>>(with a Mosin-Nagant M44) and it does it with ease and is reported to be able to >>>>>>go through 3" of titanium. I don't have tons of money to blow on titanium so I >>>>>>won't be able to test that first hand. >>>>>> >>>>>>About tank armor thickness. There is no tank today with 1 meter (or more) of >>>>>>armor. It would be much too heavy. They've got a rating system however called, >>>>>>"Rolled Homogeneous Armor Equivalent" or RHAe. It is between 500mm and 1,300mm >>>>>>depending on projectile. This is not actual thickness, only the equivalent. Look >>>>>>up information on the Abrams "Burlington" armor. >>>>>> >>>>>>You can read more about this at: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/abrams.htm >>>>>> >>>>>>Also, if you want to see a tank disappear.. check this out :) >>>>>>http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/JavelinLiveFireVsT72.mpg >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In 1940 it took thousands of deaths, despite having machine guns and hundreds of >>>>>>>>fixed bunker positions which no airplane bomb could take out in 1940. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Most tend to forget simply the advances in hardware not to mention computing >>>>>>>>power and software nowadays. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Back in the old days it wasn't the same as it is today. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The accurate range of the german hand held machine gun in world war II was for >>>>>>>>example 150 meters. After that it was firing too inaccurate. Note that the >>>>>>>>majority of the german soldiers just like the dutch soldiers, came by foot there >>>>>>>>and carried their own rifle which could fire 1 bullet at a time. Not 5 in a row >>>>>>>>or something. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It is the end of world war II where things were changed really a lot. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>But that was of course after several tens of millions of deaths. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hardware guys learn quickly then. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yes, but there are _physical_ limits to firing a projectile. MOA is very >>>>>>>good accuracy. at 2000 yards that is 20". Not including wind, mirage, and >>>>>>>the shooter/target movement. 20" is not a sure kill zone. In fact, that >>>>>>>will result in many complete misses at a human target.
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