Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 13:22:57 08/05/03
Go up one level in this thread
On August 05, 2003 at 14:19:16, Matthew Hull wrote: >On August 05, 2003 at 00:05:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 04, 2003 at 22:38:32, Matthew Hull wrote: >> >>>On August 04, 2003 at 11:20:56, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On August 04, 2003 at 01:11:07, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 03, 2003 at 16:33:41, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 03, 2003 at 15:05:23, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 03, 2003 at 00:33:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On August 01, 2003 at 22:53:17, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On August 01, 2003 at 22:51:00, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On August 01, 2003 at 19:07:21, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 00:31:17, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Distances they shot at in world war 1 and 2 with sniper rifles must have been a >>>>>>>>>>>>>few hundreds of meters. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>In WW1 my grandfather was a sniper. He shot at ranges up to 1000 yards. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>In WW2 my father was a sniper. He shot at ranges up to 1000 yards. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Today, a neighbor down the street is a sniper. He shoots at ranges up to 1000 >>>>>>>>>>>>yards. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>_nobody_ shoots a sniper rifle at ranges of "kilometers" today. "kilometer" >>>>>>>>>>>>perhaps. With an occasional attempt at up to 2km with a big 50 cal "rifle". >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I have to disagree here. I read in the news back at the time that in the war in >>>>>>>>>>>Afghanistan a Canadian military sniper got the world record for a sniper >>>>>>>>>>>distance kill. He picked off some al-Qaeda guy from over 2.5 kilometers (over >>>>>>>>>>>2700 yards) away. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Dave >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>What are you disagreeing with. I said "with an occasional attempt at up to 2km >>>>>>>>>>with a 50 cal." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>You just said that. :) It _is_ rare. And no sniper would say "I can produce >>>>>>>>>>a 50% kill rate at 2KM+." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I guess I'm disagreeing with "up to 2km". :-) But then, I don't know what a 50 >>>>>>>>>cal. is, and it's not a big deal to me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It's a gun that fires the 50-cal BMG (Browning Machine Gun) round, something >>>>>>>>not much smaller than a coke bottle. Next best long-distance round is the >>>>>>>>.338 Lapua round, but it is a _long_ way from the BMG round. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>i'm not sure when you did your tour of duty. >>>>>> >>>>>>I didn't. But I _do_ shoot with former military types at our local range. And >>>>>>as I said, my Grandfather was a sniper in WW1. And my dad in WW2. And I have >>>>>>an active military neighbor that is a marine sniper, right down the street. It >>>>>>was his .50 barrett that I shot and talked about. And they do _not_ practice >>>>>>sniping at "many kilometers." There are _no_ optics to support that, for >>>>>>example. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>But here 10 kilometers from here where the tanks and air mobile regiment is >>>>>>>training they used to train with sniper rifles up to a few kilometers. >>>>>> >>>>>>To 1000 yards, I'll agree with you. That is about a Km. Even to 2Km, I'll >>>>>>agree although they _never_ shoot that far in real situations as it is simply >>>>>>impossible to guarantee a hit. MOA accuracy is very tough to produce, that >>>>>>means 1" at 100 yards, 10" at 1000 yards. 10" is not a "sure kill" target >>>>>>size. >>>>> >>>>>Groups of less than 3" have been achieved at 1000 yards. Look here: >>>>> >>>>>"Bill Crawford fires a new IBS 1000 yard Light Gun record with a perfect score >>>>>of 50 and a new record 5 shot group for this class of 2.766"! Wow! Nice shooting >>>>>Bill! Bill used a Lilja .30 caliber 10" twist barrel to set this new record. " >>>>>http://www.riflebarrels.com/winners/1000yards.htm >>>>> >>>>>3" is an easy headshot, and as you may have guessed a bullet to the head = >>>>>fatal. So that = sure kill. >>>> >>>> >>>>Hint: >>>> >>>>1. How many times has that been done? >>>> >>>>2. What were the conditions (weather)? >>>> >>>>3. How many shooters repeat that? >>>> >>>>As I said, 1000 yards is a "reasonable kill range". >>> >>> >>>We have an M1869/71 Vetterli rifle that my grandfather picked up in WWI from a >>>german sniper nest (41 cal. rim-fire). The adjustable sight has settings 1 >>>through 10 which indicate hundreds of "paces", 10 being 1000 paces. >>> >>>Matt >> >>I have one of those. Rear peep sight. Even has two windage "wings" on the >>rear sight. It actually works, although shooting at 1000 yards is a daunting >>task. My grandfather was a WWI vet and brought it back with him. He gave it >>to me when I was about 12 years old. >> >>Kicks a bit as I recall (I haven't shot it in 30+ years). > > >Absolutely cool. We have never fired ours. Did yours have the center-fire >conversion done to it? Ours does not. My understanding is that you'd have to >custom make your own rim-fires otherwise. Also, ours is a M1869 with the >loading gate. Is yours the same model? I'm not sure about the model. But yes, it was a center-fire converted model. I'm not sure how the brass was actually made/fire-formed/etc, as it was given to me in a sack. :) > >It is a somewhat interesting story how German troops came to possess and use >these by-then-obsolete Swiss weapons. > >Matt > > >> >>> >>>http://www.militaryrifles.com/Switzerland/SwissVet.htm >>> >>> >>> >>>>Anything beyond that is >>>>not. To understand just look at the trajectory. The bullet will follow an >>>>arc that peaks about 5 _feet_ above the final point of impact. The flight >>>>time is ridiculous as well, giving mother nature (and the shooter's eyes >>>>in judging wind and dealing with mirage) plenty of time to shift the point >>>>of impact by _feet_. >>>> >>>>Note that the test you are talking about is _not_ done by a sniper. Those >>>>guys get to fire test rounds to see what wind and mirage are doing. _then_ >>>>they fire for effect. A sniper gets to fire one round. >>>> >>>>_BIG_ difference. >>>> >>>>I've done bench-rest shooting myself. And yes, you can do some amazing things. >>>>But _not_ on the first round you fire. And if that is the _only_ round you >>>>fire, look out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>in cold war, assuming sovjet invasion, assumed killing ranges of 2 kilometers >>>>>>>here from snipers. >>>>>> >>>>>>One shot out of 5-10, maybe. Snipers want "sure kills". And beyond 1000 >>>>>>yards, there is no "sure kill" unless you drop a bomb with a bit larger kill >>>>>>radius than a single projectile from a rifle/machine-gun. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Note that in world war II, they fought bigtime around here. the bullets didn't >>>>>>>even get that far back then from snipers. This with exception of course from the >>>>>>>heavy machine guns which already in WW1 could spread bullets to a kilometer or 2 >>>>>>>when put on a hill. For WWII and actual fightings taking place here see for >>>>>>>example 'operation market garden' which happened not too far from here and the >>>>>>>movies belonging to it like: "a bridge too far". Majority of victims fell here >>>>>>>however when the germans conquered netherlands. I'm 5 kilometers away from >>>>>>>'Grebbeberg'. The only hill in Netherlands close to the Rhine river... >>>>>> >>>>>>That's all well and good. .50's have been around forever. And they have a >>>>>>staggering range. But not for single-shot look-through-a-scope sniper >>>>>>operations. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>My uncle who just died a few months ago, fought heavy at the Grebbeberg and his >>>>>>>troops killed germans back there from distances up to a few inches. They used >>>>>>>rifles made in 1895 for that with fixed bajonets, because accurate fire with >>>>>>>rifles from those days wasn't very well possible. The german SS, but also the >>>>>>>regular german army forces, who drove dutch civilians and prisoners in front of >>>>>>>them when trying to conquer the Grebbeberg, only managed to conquer a few of the >>>>>>>many kilometer deep positions because the defending forces had to shoot their >>>>>>>own people first, before being able to shoot at the germans, which in that way >>>>>>>they could get closer to the positions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I don't need to mention that every so many meters there was machine guns in the >>>>>>>'grebbeberg' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The distances at which was fought in those first days of the second world war >>>>>>>are in big contrast with nowadays. >>>>>> >>>>>>No idea what you are talking about. Wars aren't fought by snipers today, >>>>>>either. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Not that the germans never conquered it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Only by threatening to bomb the cities they forced a surrender of Netherlands. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>When they would develop bullets for sniper rifles which can penetrate tank >>>>>>>armour, then a few snipers would in 2003 be able to keep that Grebbeberg out of >>>>>>>hands of the enemy. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>There is _no_ sniper round that will penetrate a tank. a 50 will barely >>>>>>pockmark a modern tank using depleted uranium armor plating that is the >>>>>>equivalent of over a _meter_ of steel. _no_ shoulder-fired weapon will >>>>>>touch that. Very few projectiles will touch that. Moving up to rockets >>>>>>or bombs is the best hope. >>>>> >>>>>If fired from the rear of the tank some of the 20mm sniper rifle (and barret .50 >>>>>caliber rifles) have been able to take down tanks using API ammo. Also, I have >>>>>some tungsten cored 7.62x54R ammo. I personally have put it through 2" of steel >>>>>(with a Mosin-Nagant M44) and it does it with ease and is reported to be able to >>>>>go through 3" of titanium. I don't have tons of money to blow on titanium so I >>>>>won't be able to test that first hand. >>>>> >>>>>About tank armor thickness. There is no tank today with 1 meter (or more) of >>>>>armor. It would be much too heavy. They've got a rating system however called, >>>>>"Rolled Homogeneous Armor Equivalent" or RHAe. It is between 500mm and 1,300mm >>>>>depending on projectile. This is not actual thickness, only the equivalent. Look >>>>>up information on the Abrams "Burlington" armor. >>>>> >>>>>You can read more about this at: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/abrams.htm >>>>> >>>>>Also, if you want to see a tank disappear.. check this out :) >>>>>http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/JavelinLiveFireVsT72.mpg >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In 1940 it took thousands of deaths, despite having machine guns and hundreds of >>>>>>>fixed bunker positions which no airplane bomb could take out in 1940. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Most tend to forget simply the advances in hardware not to mention computing >>>>>>>power and software nowadays. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Back in the old days it wasn't the same as it is today. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The accurate range of the german hand held machine gun in world war II was for >>>>>>>example 150 meters. After that it was firing too inaccurate. Note that the >>>>>>>majority of the german soldiers just like the dutch soldiers, came by foot there >>>>>>>and carried their own rifle which could fire 1 bullet at a time. Not 5 in a row >>>>>>>or something. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It is the end of world war II where things were changed really a lot. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>But that was of course after several tens of millions of deaths. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hardware guys learn quickly then. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes, but there are _physical_ limits to firing a projectile. MOA is very >>>>>>good accuracy. at 2000 yards that is 20". Not including wind, mirage, and >>>>>>the shooter/target movement. 20" is not a sure kill zone. In fact, that >>>>>>will result in many complete misses at a human target.
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