Author: Matthew Hull
Date: 11:19:16 08/05/03
Go up one level in this thread
On August 05, 2003 at 00:05:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On August 04, 2003 at 22:38:32, Matthew Hull wrote: > >>On August 04, 2003 at 11:20:56, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On August 04, 2003 at 01:11:07, Aaron Gordon wrote: >>> >>>>On August 03, 2003 at 16:33:41, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 03, 2003 at 15:05:23, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 03, 2003 at 00:33:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 01, 2003 at 22:53:17, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On August 01, 2003 at 22:51:00, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On August 01, 2003 at 19:07:21, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On July 29, 2003 at 00:31:17, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Distances they shot at in world war 1 and 2 with sniper rifles must have been a >>>>>>>>>>>>few hundreds of meters. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>In WW1 my grandfather was a sniper. He shot at ranges up to 1000 yards. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>In WW2 my father was a sniper. He shot at ranges up to 1000 yards. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Today, a neighbor down the street is a sniper. He shoots at ranges up to 1000 >>>>>>>>>>>yards. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>_nobody_ shoots a sniper rifle at ranges of "kilometers" today. "kilometer" >>>>>>>>>>>perhaps. With an occasional attempt at up to 2km with a big 50 cal "rifle". >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I have to disagree here. I read in the news back at the time that in the war in >>>>>>>>>>Afghanistan a Canadian military sniper got the world record for a sniper >>>>>>>>>>distance kill. He picked off some al-Qaeda guy from over 2.5 kilometers (over >>>>>>>>>>2700 yards) away. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Dave >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>What are you disagreeing with. I said "with an occasional attempt at up to 2km >>>>>>>>>with a 50 cal." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>You just said that. :) It _is_ rare. And no sniper would say "I can produce >>>>>>>>>a 50% kill rate at 2KM+." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I guess I'm disagreeing with "up to 2km". :-) But then, I don't know what a 50 >>>>>>>>cal. is, and it's not a big deal to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It's a gun that fires the 50-cal BMG (Browning Machine Gun) round, something >>>>>>>not much smaller than a coke bottle. Next best long-distance round is the >>>>>>>.338 Lapua round, but it is a _long_ way from the BMG round. >>>>>> >>>>>>i'm not sure when you did your tour of duty. >>>>> >>>>>I didn't. But I _do_ shoot with former military types at our local range. And >>>>>as I said, my Grandfather was a sniper in WW1. And my dad in WW2. And I have >>>>>an active military neighbor that is a marine sniper, right down the street. It >>>>>was his .50 barrett that I shot and talked about. And they do _not_ practice >>>>>sniping at "many kilometers." There are _no_ optics to support that, for >>>>>example. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>But here 10 kilometers from here where the tanks and air mobile regiment is >>>>>>training they used to train with sniper rifles up to a few kilometers. >>>>> >>>>>To 1000 yards, I'll agree with you. That is about a Km. Even to 2Km, I'll >>>>>agree although they _never_ shoot that far in real situations as it is simply >>>>>impossible to guarantee a hit. MOA accuracy is very tough to produce, that >>>>>means 1" at 100 yards, 10" at 1000 yards. 10" is not a "sure kill" target >>>>>size. >>>> >>>>Groups of less than 3" have been achieved at 1000 yards. Look here: >>>> >>>>"Bill Crawford fires a new IBS 1000 yard Light Gun record with a perfect score >>>>of 50 and a new record 5 shot group for this class of 2.766"! Wow! Nice shooting >>>>Bill! Bill used a Lilja .30 caliber 10" twist barrel to set this new record. " >>>>http://www.riflebarrels.com/winners/1000yards.htm >>>> >>>>3" is an easy headshot, and as you may have guessed a bullet to the head = >>>>fatal. So that = sure kill. >>> >>> >>>Hint: >>> >>>1. How many times has that been done? >>> >>>2. What were the conditions (weather)? >>> >>>3. How many shooters repeat that? >>> >>>As I said, 1000 yards is a "reasonable kill range". >> >> >>We have an M1869/71 Vetterli rifle that my grandfather picked up in WWI from a >>german sniper nest (41 cal. rim-fire). The adjustable sight has settings 1 >>through 10 which indicate hundreds of "paces", 10 being 1000 paces. >> >>Matt > >I have one of those. Rear peep sight. Even has two windage "wings" on the >rear sight. It actually works, although shooting at 1000 yards is a daunting >task. My grandfather was a WWI vet and brought it back with him. He gave it >to me when I was about 12 years old. > >Kicks a bit as I recall (I haven't shot it in 30+ years). Absolutely cool. We have never fired ours. Did yours have the center-fire conversion done to it? Ours does not. My understanding is that you'd have to custom make your own rim-fires otherwise. Also, ours is a M1869 with the loading gate. Is yours the same model? It is a somewhat interesting story how German troops came to possess and use these by-then-obsolete Swiss weapons. Matt > >> >>http://www.militaryrifles.com/Switzerland/SwissVet.htm >> >> >> >>>Anything beyond that is >>>not. To understand just look at the trajectory. The bullet will follow an >>>arc that peaks about 5 _feet_ above the final point of impact. The flight >>>time is ridiculous as well, giving mother nature (and the shooter's eyes >>>in judging wind and dealing with mirage) plenty of time to shift the point >>>of impact by _feet_. >>> >>>Note that the test you are talking about is _not_ done by a sniper. Those >>>guys get to fire test rounds to see what wind and mirage are doing. _then_ >>>they fire for effect. A sniper gets to fire one round. >>> >>>_BIG_ difference. >>> >>>I've done bench-rest shooting myself. And yes, you can do some amazing things. >>>But _not_ on the first round you fire. And if that is the _only_ round you >>>fire, look out. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>in cold war, assuming sovjet invasion, assumed killing ranges of 2 kilometers >>>>>>here from snipers. >>>>> >>>>>One shot out of 5-10, maybe. Snipers want "sure kills". And beyond 1000 >>>>>yards, there is no "sure kill" unless you drop a bomb with a bit larger kill >>>>>radius than a single projectile from a rifle/machine-gun. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Note that in world war II, they fought bigtime around here. the bullets didn't >>>>>>even get that far back then from snipers. This with exception of course from the >>>>>>heavy machine guns which already in WW1 could spread bullets to a kilometer or 2 >>>>>>when put on a hill. For WWII and actual fightings taking place here see for >>>>>>example 'operation market garden' which happened not too far from here and the >>>>>>movies belonging to it like: "a bridge too far". Majority of victims fell here >>>>>>however when the germans conquered netherlands. I'm 5 kilometers away from >>>>>>'Grebbeberg'. The only hill in Netherlands close to the Rhine river... >>>>> >>>>>That's all well and good. .50's have been around forever. And they have a >>>>>staggering range. But not for single-shot look-through-a-scope sniper >>>>>operations. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>My uncle who just died a few months ago, fought heavy at the Grebbeberg and his >>>>>>troops killed germans back there from distances up to a few inches. They used >>>>>>rifles made in 1895 for that with fixed bajonets, because accurate fire with >>>>>>rifles from those days wasn't very well possible. The german SS, but also the >>>>>>regular german army forces, who drove dutch civilians and prisoners in front of >>>>>>them when trying to conquer the Grebbeberg, only managed to conquer a few of the >>>>>>many kilometer deep positions because the defending forces had to shoot their >>>>>>own people first, before being able to shoot at the germans, which in that way >>>>>>they could get closer to the positions. >>>>>> >>>>>>I don't need to mention that every so many meters there was machine guns in the >>>>>>'grebbeberg' >>>>>> >>>>>>The distances at which was fought in those first days of the second world war >>>>>>are in big contrast with nowadays. >>>>> >>>>>No idea what you are talking about. Wars aren't fought by snipers today, >>>>>either. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Not that the germans never conquered it. >>>>>> >>>>>>Only by threatening to bomb the cities they forced a surrender of Netherlands. >>>>>> >>>>>>When they would develop bullets for sniper rifles which can penetrate tank >>>>>>armour, then a few snipers would in 2003 be able to keep that Grebbeberg out of >>>>>>hands of the enemy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>There is _no_ sniper round that will penetrate a tank. a 50 will barely >>>>>pockmark a modern tank using depleted uranium armor plating that is the >>>>>equivalent of over a _meter_ of steel. _no_ shoulder-fired weapon will >>>>>touch that. Very few projectiles will touch that. Moving up to rockets >>>>>or bombs is the best hope. >>>> >>>>If fired from the rear of the tank some of the 20mm sniper rifle (and barret .50 >>>>caliber rifles) have been able to take down tanks using API ammo. Also, I have >>>>some tungsten cored 7.62x54R ammo. I personally have put it through 2" of steel >>>>(with a Mosin-Nagant M44) and it does it with ease and is reported to be able to >>>>go through 3" of titanium. I don't have tons of money to blow on titanium so I >>>>won't be able to test that first hand. >>>> >>>>About tank armor thickness. There is no tank today with 1 meter (or more) of >>>>armor. It would be much too heavy. They've got a rating system however called, >>>>"Rolled Homogeneous Armor Equivalent" or RHAe. It is between 500mm and 1,300mm >>>>depending on projectile. This is not actual thickness, only the equivalent. Look >>>>up information on the Abrams "Burlington" armor. >>>> >>>>You can read more about this at: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/abrams.htm >>>> >>>>Also, if you want to see a tank disappear.. check this out :) >>>>http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/JavelinLiveFireVsT72.mpg >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>In 1940 it took thousands of deaths, despite having machine guns and hundreds of >>>>>>fixed bunker positions which no airplane bomb could take out in 1940. >>>>>> >>>>>>Most tend to forget simply the advances in hardware not to mention computing >>>>>>power and software nowadays. >>>>>> >>>>>>Back in the old days it wasn't the same as it is today. >>>>>> >>>>>>The accurate range of the german hand held machine gun in world war II was for >>>>>>example 150 meters. After that it was firing too inaccurate. Note that the >>>>>>majority of the german soldiers just like the dutch soldiers, came by foot there >>>>>>and carried their own rifle which could fire 1 bullet at a time. Not 5 in a row >>>>>>or something. >>>>>> >>>>>>It is the end of world war II where things were changed really a lot. >>>>>> >>>>>>But that was of course after several tens of millions of deaths. >>>>>> >>>>>>Hardware guys learn quickly then. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Yes, but there are _physical_ limits to firing a projectile. MOA is very >>>>>good accuracy. at 2000 yards that is 20". Not including wind, mirage, and >>>>>the shooter/target movement. 20" is not a sure kill zone. In fact, that >>>>>will result in many complete misses at a human target.
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