Author: Sune Larsson
Date: 07:36:11 11/16/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 16, 2003 at 10:11:52, Bob Durrett wrote: >On November 16, 2003 at 08:17:37, Sune Larsson wrote: > >>On November 16, 2003 at 07:10:14, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On November 16, 2003 at 06:28:37, Sune Larsson wrote: >>> >>>>On November 16, 2003 at 05:38:20, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 16, 2003 at 05:20:04, Gerhard Sonnabend wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Hi ! >>>>>> >>>>>>As you can see since (deep)fritz 7 there is no progress against other engines. >>>>>>It looks like that frans has tried to optimize his creation for playing >>>>>>against strong humans - a good decision. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>No >>>>> >>>>>We have no evidence if new Fritz is better or worse against humans and it is not >>>>>a good decision because the customer cannot care less if the program get 99% or >>>>>99.1% against him. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>> >>>> No >>>> >>>> You do not and cannot know what "the customer" cares about. You can only speak >>>> for yourself. Do you really think all the tournament players/corr players care >>>> about machine vs machine games? Can you even imagine that they just *might* be >>>> interested in ideas from a chessprogram that they can use in games vs other >>>> humans? At least this is a possibility - yes? >>> >>>If a program is better then it gives better ideas. >>>If a program is not better against other programs then I do not expect it to >>>give better ideas for correspondence games when the opponent can use other >>>programs. >>> >>>> Speaking for myself, I welcome this development, i.e. making the programs play >>>> more "humanlike" chess (without the human tactical errors of course). Junior >>>> is very interesting here - giving up material in cramped positions in order >>>> to free the game etc. >>>> >>>> /S >>> >>>I did not talk against sacrificing material and I think that it can help >>>in comp-comp games(Junior improves in the ssdf list relative to previous >>>versions). >>> >>>Uri >> >> >> No, you spoke about what "the customer" cares or doesn't care about. As if >> you really could know...Or have you made any marketing research in this >> area? CB goes for showing the world that their products can level up to the >> best players in matches (so there must be some value there for all the >> tournament players around, yes? - that's the idea.) I have no doubt about >> that the CB-people know what they are doing, in order to increase sales. >> I also remember a wellknown name from CB, calling the people in this forum >> "just a bunch of computerchess freaks", so I don't think they care much >> about engine-engine games - except of leading the SSDF-list with some of >> their products. Looks like the value of winning the Wch of computerchess >> has decreased quite a bit too. (Just a personal reflection though.) >> >> /S > >First of all, "most people" do not care at all about chess and don't even think >about chess computers. Right. > >Of those who do care about chess, only a very small subset are "CCC types." Right. > >Nevertheless, my guess is that every chess enthusiast or chess player who can >afford it will have some sort of chess computer, usually a PC with a chess >engine. I live in the USA so cannot say how common computers are outside the >USA. Presumably, computers are commonplace in the more affluent countries, >especially in Europe. This is my experience too. One chess engine and some big and good databases - like OTB-chess - corr - studies. > >Generally, one might expect chess people to try to determine "which is the >highest rated chess engine?" and purchase the best. On the other hand, in the >USA it is extremely easy to find and purchase Chessmaster 9000, which is plenty >good enough for most everybody. The internet is also a good place for people >who are too frugal, cheap, or poor to spend the few dollars needed to get the >best. At least in Sweden, and among the players I know, Fritz is the name. "How did you come up with this variation?" "I analysed with Fritz." Not Junior, Tiger, Shredder, Chessmaster, Hiarcs, Ruffian or Movei. - Fritz -. And it's very often enough with one engine. This is not strange - I read somewhere that around 80% of all sold CB-programs are "Fritzies". /S > >SSDF is the only rating organization with any credibility. I bought Shredder >only because it made it to the top of the SSDF rating list. Maybe I'm typical? > >Bob D.
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