Author: Vincent Lejeune
Date: 13:21:32 11/17/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 17, 2003 at 13:01:14, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>On November 17, 2003 at 10:49:25, martin fierz wrote:
>
>>On November 17, 2003 at 10:27:29, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On November 17, 2003 at 09:31:28, martin fierz wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 17, 2003 at 09:19:18, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 17, 2003 at 07:34:51, Albert Silver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>That's not a place where _I_ would have resigned, for the record...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I can't attest to it, as I don't receive it in Brazil, but comments in the ICC
>>>>>>chat said that at the end the ESPN coverage had been cut. Combined with the fact
>>>>>>that I also don't believe GK was going to miss the comp, I'd say that's a pretty
>>>>>>reasonable conspiracy theory... :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I wasn't watching ESPN's coverage. I was online on ICC with Crafty running
>>>>>in channel 211 as usual. The resignation came with crafty at +2, which seems
>>>>>_way_ early, unless there is some sort of agreement that when Fritz goes
>>>>>down -2 it _must_ resign...
>>>>
>>>>you seem to believe that the number the eval spits out has something to do with
>>>>how hard it is to win a position... that isn't true ;-)
>>>>
>>>>cheers
>>>> martin
>>>
>>>
>>>I seem to remember "meat makes mistakes". I might resign at -5 or something,
>>>but not at -2. Remember that Kasparov had good positions in games 1 and 2.
>>>In game two he lost, rather than Fritz "winning". I'd want to have him
>>>demonstrate that he would not do the same thing in game 3. :)
>>
>>meat makes mistakes *much* more frequently when either
>>- meat is in time trouble
>>- the position is complicated
>>both was not the case here. it was the appropriate moment to resign. i guess if
>>you play out a few more moves on your machine, as suggested by the commentators
>>(or basically, exchange a few more pieces by invading on the a-file), crafty
>>will soon say +3 or more for white.
>>
>>cheers
>> martin
>
>
>My problem with resigning so early is that it is not that unlikely that
>white makes a small mistake. Then another.
>
>I remember Levy playing chess 4.x in the late 70's, and it found a crushing
>sacrifice against him. He said "The position is totally hopeless for me here"
>in his later analysis. Then a few moves later he said "it is not not totally
>hopeless, just hopeless." And eventually it became a draw if I recall
>correctly.
>
>A score of +2 is not winning, IMHO, even though in this position white has all
>the play. However, the game is wearing on well beyond 40 moves, white is
>tired. Black is not. The game pace is speeding up. Etc...
>
>I don't see any good reason for not playing on a few more moves until it
>is "completely hopeless" not just "sad". :)
here's the game from Levy's bet
[Event "The Levy Bet 1"]
[Site "Reading"]
[Date "1978.08.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Levy, D.N.L.."]
[Black "CHESS 4.7"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A07"]
[Annotator "DNL"]
[PlyCount "127"]
[EventDate "2003.01.10"]
{Notes from Levy & Newborn (1991), "How Computers Play Chess". W.H.Freeman &
Co. ISBN 0-7167-8121-2, with additions by CA == Computer Analyst} 1. g3 d5 2.
Bg2 e5 3. d3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. O-O Bd7 6. b3 Bc5 7. Bb2 Qe7 8. a3 e4 9. Ne1 O-O
10. d4 Bd6 11. e3 {When faced with a strong computer program, I try to play
the opponent, not the position. It was my plan to create a situation in which
nothing was happening, and then to expand gradually on the queenside.
Unfortunately, the program had learned how to attack on the kingside.} 11...
Ng4 $1 12. h3 $4 (12. c4 {must be played, but even then} 12... Qg5 {
is strong. I had completely overlooked Black's 13th move.}) 12... Nxe3 $3 {
The program replied instantly, indicating that it had expected 12.h3 and had
already worked out its replywhileIwasthinking!} 13. fxe3 Qg5 14. g4 {Realising
that I was completely busted, I thought my only hope was tosacrifice the
exchange in order to trade off the Queens.} 14... Qxe3+ 15. Rf2 Bg3 16. Qe2
Qxf2+ {Of course, it would be crushing to take with the Bishop and keep the
Queens on so that my King would die of exposure, but the program knows that it
should trade down when materially ahead.} 17. Qxf2 Bxf2+ 18. Kxf2 f5 $1 19.
gxf5 Ne7 20. c4 Rxf5+ 21. Kg1 c6 22. Nc3 Rh5 23. Kh2 Rf8 24. Nd1 Ng6 25. Rc1
Bxh3 $1 {I had seen this coming but was powerless to prevent it.} 26. Bxh3 Rf1
27. Ng2 Rf3 28. cxd5 Rhxh3+ 29. Kg1 cxd5 30. Rc8+ Nf8 $2 31. Bc3 Rd3 32. Nde3
Rhxe3 33. Nxe3 Rxe3 34. Bb4 {My first threat of the game, but I was not too
happy about being three pawns down.} 34... Rf3 35. Rd8 h6 ({
The program no doubt saw that} 35... Rf5 36. Bxf8 Rxf8 37. Rxd5 {would be follo
wed by the win of the e-Pawn or the b-Pawn and probably did not analyse past
this point.}) 36. Rxd5 Rxb3 37. Rd8 Rf3 38. Ra8 g5 39. d5 h5 40. d6 Kg7 41.
Rxa7 Rf7 42. Ra5 {Suddenly the position is no longer totally hopeless - it is
merely rather hopeless.} 42... Kf6 43. Bc3+ Kg6 44. Re5 Rf3 45. Bb4 Rf4 46. Re7
Rf7 47. Rxe4 Rd7 48. Re7 h4 49. Kg2 g4 50. Kh2 $6 (50. Bc5 {
would have prevented} 50... b6) 50... b6 51. Kg2 Rd8 {
Help! Black is beginning to untangle its pieces.} 52. a4 Nd7 53. a5 Nf6 ({
I was expecting} 53... bxa5 54. Bxa5 Ra8 {, and hoping that} 55. Bc3 {
might hold.}) 54. axb6 $1 {Material equality at last. Now I thought I had a
draw, and if my opponent made one more mistake, then maybe ...} 54... Nd5 55.
b7 $1 {At this point in the proceedings the compute got sick and the doctors
were called. Twenty-five minutes later, with the program still having plenty
of time on its clock, it played} 55... Nxe7 $1 {A brilliant decision. CHESS 4.
7 had probably found the only way for Black to draw!} (55... Nxb4 {
does nothing for Black, if only because of something like} 56. Re4 Nc6 57.
Rxg4+ Kh5 58. Rc4) ({also} 55... Nf4+ 56. Kh1 {looks good for White.}) 56. dxe7
Rh8 $1 ({On} 56... Re8 57. Ba5 {wins}) 57. Bd6 ({Fritz6, 2003} 57. Bc3 h3+ 58.
Kh1 Rb8 59. Be5 Re8 60. Bc7 Rxe7 61. b8=Q Re1+ 62. Kh2 Re2+ 63. Kg1 Re1+ 64.
Kf2 Re6 65. Qg8+ Kf5 66. Qf7+ Rf6 67. Qh5+ (67. Qd5+) 67... Ke6+ 68. Kg3 Kd7
69. Qxg4+ Kxc7 70. Qg7+ Kc8) 57... Kf6 58. b8=Q Rxb8 59. Bxb8 {
and the EGTs say 'draw'} 59... Kxe7 60. Bf4 Kf6 61. Bd2 Kg6 62. Be1 Kg5 63. Bf2
Kh5 64. Be1 {And David Slate offered me a draw on behalf of his program. This
was a remarkable game, and the first time a computer program had ever drawn
with an International Master under tournament conditions. Before the match
David Slate had some doubts as to whether his program was ready to play me,
but this game removed them.} 1/2-1/2
All the games are here :
http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/icga/news/events/pastevents/GK-DJ%20event/DeepBriefing.html
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