Author: Wayne Lowrance
Date: 13:01:35 12/23/03
Go up one level in this thread
On December 23, 2003 at 10:17:50, Uri Blass wrote: >On December 23, 2003 at 08:50:51, Amir Ban wrote: > >>On December 23, 2003 at 08:09:34, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On December 23, 2003 at 06:47:18, Amir Ban wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Thanks for running this match and for the interesting commentary. >>>> >>>>My point in playing this match was never to show how weak crafty is, but >>>>something different: Too many programmers and posters in this forum take the >>>>speed issue way too seriously. They don't understand the importance of >>>>evaluation, and when they do think about it, they think it's about pawn >>>>structure and a few super-rare endgame tableaus. >>>> >>>>I also needed to check that I've not been wasting my efforts in the last few >>>>years. >>>> >>>>Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukka, >>>>Amir >>> >>>I do not claim that evaluation is not important but my opinion is that search is >>>not thing that is less important. >>> >>>I also know that inspite of the fact that you say that evaluation is important >>>your evaluation takes only 20% of Junior's time(I do not know about latest >>>Junior but I know about previous post of you). >>> >> >>Less than 10% in most positions. >> >> >>>How is it possible? >>> >>>Did not you find important things to evaluate that it is simply impossible to >>>evaluate them fast? >>> >> >>There are many things I can do basically for free in my framework. There are >>things that break the model, and either are neglected or if considered critical >>get done outside it. >> >> >>>For example let talk about pieces that are in danger of being trapped because >>>the opponent control every square that they can goto. >>> >>>There are cases that you need to search many plies forward to see by search that >>>they are really trapped but a good evaluation should detect the danger. >>> >>>Correct me if I am wrong but I guess that you do not evaluate this information >>>in every node that you evaluate otherwise you cannot be faster in nps than the >>>opponents. >>> >>>Did you consider to evaluate this information or do you think that this >>>information is not important? >>> >> >>I do this for some important special cases. Not in the general case. It's hard >>for me to guess how productive that would be. >> >> >>>I think that evaluating expensive information in part of the cases is probably >>>the best practical idea. >>> >>>Based on my understanding Rebel is using that idea when it evaluates every node >>>before qsearch by full evaluation and use lazy evaluation after it when the lazy >>>evaluation can miss only factors that were not relevant before the qsearch. >>> >>>Do you use a similiar idea? >>> >> >>No. >> >>You are confusing between the evaluation elements and its result. Both are >>important, but it's still true that your evaluation of a position can use a lot >>of smart and correct elements and be totally off, and it is equally true that it >>can be right though neglecting a lot of important stuff. >> >>Amir > >The point is that more smart elements can improve the result and it seems that >by neglecting a lot of important stuff you limit your possibilities to improve >the evaluation. > >Finding the correct weights or finding ideas of defining more cheap stuff is one >way to improve the evaluation but not the only one. > >I do not claim that your evaluation is relatively bad because Junior is a fast >searcher but it can be better if you use some expensive stuff and decision not >to use it suggest that speed is not more important for you than better >evaluation when you need to choose between them. > >Uri Excuse me Uri but you are making a fuss against Amir, whose program clearly demostrates his better understanding of his program if not chess programming than you and your whichamacallit program whose name I dont remember.
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