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Subject: Re: Another interesting Anti-Null move position (from a real game)

Author: Omid David Tabibi

Date: 08:41:30 06/15/04

Go up one level in this thread


On June 15, 2004 at 07:48:48, Tony Werten wrote:

>On June 15, 2004 at 04:52:53, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>
>>On June 14, 2004 at 21:45:44, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>>
>>>On June 14, 2004 at 20:12:09, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 14, 2004 at 19:20:57, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On June 14, 2004 at 16:31:17, Jaime Benito de Valle Ruiz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>[d]8/8/1p4p1/p5kp/Pp1QP1Pq/1P6/6K1/8 w - - 0 62
>>>>>>
>>>>>>White moves and wins!
>>>>>>Can your engine find the right answer and give the proper "crushing" score
>>>>>>(around 9 pawns!) along with a proper PV? How long does it take?
>>>>>>Mine doesn't find anything after a long long time (over an hour), but with
>>>>>>null-move disabled, it takes only a few seconds to show the full PV.
>>>>>>(Some engines find the right answer, but with a small score, an absurd PV, and
>>>>>>they change their mind some plies later)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In this position the black king is in a very delicate position: After a couple
>>>>>>of moves, if the black queen moves, white checkmates inmediately, so both kings
>>>>>>and queens must remain still while pawns play on their own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Any good suggestion to avoid this problem with null-move?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Jaime
>>>>>
>>>>>Zappa doesn't get it either (gxh5 @ 15 ply after 1 minute).  Zappa relies on
>>>>>double nullmove for zugzwang avoidance.  This works find for positions with 1
>>>>>zugzwang, but in this position black gets hit with about 10 of them :)
>>>>
>>>>Ehem, ehem, heard about verified null-move pruning? :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>anthony
>>>
>>>
>>>It's a possibility.  If I understand it correctly verifications performed
>>>nonrecursively.
>>
>>The original formulation had problems with detecting several zugzwangs in a
>>line, and I think it might have failed to find the correct move here. One of the
>>things I changed in the new formulation is to make the algorithm find as many
>>zugzwangs there might be along a line.
>
>Did you split black and white zugzwangs now ?

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but the algorithm works the same for both
white and black :)


>
>Tony
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Right now, my goals are "Deep Zappa" aka "ParZappa" aka "Zappa-NUMA" aka "Zappa"
>>>and the autotuning stuff; when I get some free time I'll try to give it a shot.
>>>
>>>Oh, and I have to rewrite my eval again.
>>>
>>>anthony



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