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Subject: Re: When would you use a Null Move Search?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 22:12:02 12/23/98

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On December 23, 1998 at 19:57:54, Roberto Waldteufel wrote:

>
>On December 23, 1998 at 19:27:34, Inmann Werner wrote:
>
>>On December 23, 1998 at 19:12:16, KarinsDad wrote:
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I understand the basic concepts of a null move search, however, what I do not
>>>quite understand is when in a chess program would it be used. Would you use it
>>>just after non-quiescent searches, specific cases of nq searches (e.g. checks or
>>>piece takes), or in other areas of the tree?
>>>
>>>Do you use it just to find bad moves or is there a way to find good moves with
>>>it as well?
>>>
>>>And when you use it, how extensively do you search with it?
>>>
>>>Thanks in advance,
>>>
>>>KarinsDad
>>
>>I use Null move only in the "normal" alpha-beta (not in q-search)
>>I do it in each (nearly each) position before trying any other move. After doing
>>the null move I call normal alpha beta, but with less depth. There again can
>>occur Nullmoves, but never allow 2 in a row. When I get back my value, and it is
>>>= beta I stop this tree and return beta without trying any move. This reduces
>>the tree a lot. (But is not a really sure thing, but wrking fine.)
>>Second, if the value is rather deep (nearly mate) I extend the search with one
>>ply, cause there anywhere is a mate threat possible. Works also fine.
>>
>>Dont forget: Beware of Zugzwang!!
>>
>>Wish a happy Christmas
>>
>>Werner
>
>Hi Werner,
>
>Most of what you describe is the same as what I do, but I am interested to read
>that you allow multiple null moves in the same line. I only allow one null move
>in a line, which I implement by setting a flag after a null move that prohibits
>further null moves in all descendant nodes. Have you compared the two methods
>and found multiple null moves faster? Are null move related errors noticeably
>more or less frequent with multiple null moves?
>
>Also, can you explain exactly how you use the null move score to trigger an
>extension? Do you mean that you do this if the null move score is close to
>"giving mate" or when it is close to "being mated" for the side to move?
>
>And zugzwang, the great danger for null move. I dissallow null moves when either
>side has less than 3 pieces (not pawns). How do you do it?
>
>Merry Christmas,
>Roberto


"recursive null-move" means to allow more than one in a line...  although there
is little use in doing two in a row since both can't fail high.  But yes, if
you allow more than one you will see significant savings...



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