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Subject: Re: How about open weaponry boxing championship?

Author: Omid David Tabibi

Date: 16:25:58 07/13/04

Go up one level in this thread


On July 13, 2004 at 19:21:45, Lance Perkins wrote:

>So if engine A and engine B both run on the same AMD hardware, then the playing
>field is equal? Sorry to disagree here. If engine A is optimized for AMD and
>engine B is optmized for Intel, it obviously not equal. Thinker, for example, is
>optmized for Intel only. Would I optmized it for AMD just to join your AMD-only
>tournament? I would not. Its not fair.

It would be safe to assume that the difference between the "optimized for AMD"
and non-optimized versions wouldn't be 400%... and in fact in most cases it
would be only a few percent.

>
>
>On July 13, 2004 at 19:04:39, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>
>>On July 13, 2004 at 18:56:59, Lance Perkins wrote:
>>
>>>So, after all that ranting about having the "same" machine, to you, the
>>>difference in processor architecture (AMD vs Intel) does not matter.
>>>
>>>Well, it does. So, is the AMD 3200+ (2Ghz), the same as 3.2Gz Intel?
>>
>>No it is not. But if all participants get the same thing it won't matter much.
>>
>>>Or should
>>>it be a 2Ghz AMD vs 2Ghz Intel. It really gets muddy.
>>
>>It doesn't matter whether it is Intel or AMD, 1GHz or 2GHz, as long as it is
>>equal for everyone.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>---
>>>
>>>On July 13, 2004 at 18:42:52, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 13, 2004 at 18:37:18, Lance Perkins wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Using your horse race analogy: after a horse race, are you comparing horses or
>>>>>are you comparing jockeys?
>>>>
>>>>Both of them, assuming all participants used horses, and not donkies.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Now back to chess engines... Even on the same hardware, comparison is not
>>>>>accurate. What if a program is optimized for Intel architecture, while another
>>>>>is designed for AMD architecture? Picking one hardware would be unfair for one
>>>>>of the engines.
>>>>
>>>>Most chess programs run better on AMD. But it won't matter if all of them run on
>>>>Intel or all of them run on AMD (at most it will affect them by a few percentage
>>>>in comparison to other programs, surely not 400%...).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>So really, what is your definition of the "world 'computer' chess 'champion'"?
>>>>>
>>>>>On July 13, 2004 at 18:24:50, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On July 13, 2004 at 18:15:42, Lance Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Are you saying that given the same hardware, games between chess programs are
>>>>>>>"fair" by your definition?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>How can it be if they use different opening books?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What people put in the code is not even the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It depends what you want to compare. If you want to compare chess playing
>>>>>>strength, then of course opening books, evaluation, etc, are all part of the
>>>>>>comparison. If you want to compare hardware, then run a unique program
>>>>>>(benchmark) on each hardware and compare the results.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But by the current format of WCCC you don't reach any of these conclusions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Arasan's eval code has 3700 lines of code. Thinker has less than 1000 LOC.
>>>>>>>Arasan's binary is 1.3M (1300K). Thinker is 80K (less that 16 times). Have you
>>>>>>>seen a boxing match between 50lb kid and a 180lb adult?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Maybe folks are having difficulty with the idea that a chess program is a
>>>>>>>combination of hardware and software. Can you really do anything with just
>>>>>>>sotware?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The world "computer" chess champion is the best H+S combo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Cheers...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On July 13, 2004 at 17:45:30, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On July 13, 2004 at 17:40:19, Lance Perkins wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In a "war", that's how it is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Nobody claimed war is fair.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On July 13, 2004 at 17:38:42, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The 2004 World Boxing Championship
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Rules:
>>>>>>>>>>Each participant is allowed to use whatever weaponry he would like.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Participants:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Name       Weapon
>>>>>>>>>>----       ------
>>>>>>>>>>Bill       no weapon
>>>>>>>>>>Jack       knife
>>>>>>>>>>Jonathan   handgun
>>>>>>>>>>George     M16 rifle
>>>>>>>>>>Robert     RPG
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>May the best boxer win!



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