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Subject: Re: Immortal game? Qc7?! analyse by S8 (Be7!)

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 10:14:21 11/10/04

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On November 10, 2004 at 12:55:52, chandler yergin wrote:

>On November 10, 2004 at 10:39:47, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On November 10, 2004 at 10:05:04, chandler yergin wrote:
>>
>>>On November 10, 2004 at 06:21:14, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 09, 2004 at 20:44:14, chandler yergin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 09, 2004 at 17:53:34, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On November 09, 2004 at 17:10:02, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You are missing the point, Chandler.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You probably played through the game with Shredder 8 on.  At that point, it
>>>>>>>found that some of the positions it originally thought were good for black, were
>>>>>>>in fact good for white, and it recorded them.  You then returned to the initial
>>>>>>>position, and boom! it has learned from its mistakes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What is the difference you ask?  The point is that Shredder would not play those
>>>>>>>moves on its own, without help from a human, without a very long time to search.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>anthony
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>Your explanation is better than my explanation and I hope that finally Chandler
>>>>>>will understand the point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>
>>>>>You all 'miss' my Point!
>>>>>and.. miss the capability of the Search Engine!
>>>>>CY
>>>>
>>>>We miss nothing
>>>
>>>You missed this, you're misleading,
>>>and obsessed with 'locking' the engine to a single variation!
>>>Show what the Engine is really analyzing!
>>>Many variations!
>>>
>>>
>>>>The capability of the search engine after learning is simply irrelevant for this
>>>>discussion.
>>>>
>>>>The discussion was about the question if engines can find the move in a game
>>>>without previous knowledge that humans give him from analysis.
>>>
>>>And.. they DO!
>>>Of course they do!
>>>That's what an Analysis Module Does!
>>>It finds ALL the Possible moves in a position, and evaluates each one.
>>
>>Finding all the possible move and evaluating them does not mean finding
>>correctluy what is the best move and if an engine evaluates h5 as second best
>>then it did not find that h5 is the best.
>>
>>The engine also evaluates all the moves even if you do not give it many lines.
>>It does not show you the analysis in that case but only the analysis of the best
>>move but it analyzes other moves to find that they are weaker.
>
>Yes!
>
>Thank you!
>
>Now we agree that the Engine does indeed find and evaluate the move.
>A great deal different, than the assertion it
> "doesn't find it or can't find it"

When people say does not find the move they mean that it does not find that the
score is better for that move(otherwise engines can find every move).

>>
>>>You know that! Or should!
>>>Don't tell us an engine doesn't or can't find a move!
>>
>>It is a fact that engines do not find the move h5 in a short time in their
>>strongest setting that is with only one option
>
>
>Right, it doesn't 'show it' with you locking it in to only one variation.
>You now agree with that. BUt it's found it and evaluated it, and dismissed it as
>not being the strongest move.
>At that time.. let it run
>and.. lose on time
>;)
>CY

When I say does not find I do not mean that it does not search the move but only
that it does not evaluate it as stronger otherwise engines can find every move
and the discussion if engine can find some move is meaningless.
>
>>one option is the strongest setting because having an exact score for more that
>>one move usually make them slower and it is better for them to find only a bound
>>for the moves that are not the best in order to find that they are weaker.
>>
>>The fact that using some options can help to get better analysis is irrelevant.
>
>
> From whose standpoint?
>Unless the Computer is hooked up to ICC or Playchess, and makes the move
>automatically, it's not irrelevant.

It is clearly relevant for the programmer who want the engine to play better
moves.

It is also relevant for the user because the user is interested in the best move
and if he has not a lot of time to analyze he may believe the move that the
engine shows as best and not to the second move.

There are advantages for using one option because the engine may search deeper
with only one option.

Uri



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