Author: chandler yergin
Date: 11:34:52 11/10/04
Go up one level in this thread
On November 10, 2004 at 13:14:21, Uri Blass wrote: >On November 10, 2004 at 12:55:52, chandler yergin wrote: > >>On November 10, 2004 at 10:39:47, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On November 10, 2004 at 10:05:04, chandler yergin wrote: >>> >>>>On November 10, 2004 at 06:21:14, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 09, 2004 at 20:44:14, chandler yergin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 09, 2004 at 17:53:34, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 09, 2004 at 17:10:02, Anthony Cozzie wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You are missing the point, Chandler. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You probably played through the game with Shredder 8 on. At that point, it >>>>>>>>found that some of the positions it originally thought were good for black, were >>>>>>>>in fact good for white, and it recorded them. You then returned to the initial >>>>>>>>position, and boom! it has learned from its mistakes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What is the difference you ask? The point is that Shredder would not play those >>>>>>>>moves on its own, without help from a human, without a very long time to search. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>anthony >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>Your explanation is better than my explanation and I hope that finally Chandler >>>>>>>will understand the point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>>>> >>>>>>You all 'miss' my Point! >>>>>>and.. miss the capability of the Search Engine! >>>>>>CY >>>>> >>>>>We miss nothing >>>> >>>>You missed this, you're misleading, >>>>and obsessed with 'locking' the engine to a single variation! >>>>Show what the Engine is really analyzing! >>>>Many variations! >>>> >>>> >>>>>The capability of the search engine after learning is simply irrelevant for this >>>>>discussion. >>>>> >>>>>The discussion was about the question if engines can find the move in a game >>>>>without previous knowledge that humans give him from analysis. >>>> >>>>And.. they DO! >>>>Of course they do! >>>>That's what an Analysis Module Does! >>>>It finds ALL the Possible moves in a position, and evaluates each one. >>> >>>Finding all the possible move and evaluating them does not mean finding >>>correctluy what is the best move and if an engine evaluates h5 as second best >>>then it did not find that h5 is the best. >>> >>>The engine also evaluates all the moves even if you do not give it many lines. >>>It does not show you the analysis in that case but only the analysis of the best >>>move but it analyzes other moves to find that they are weaker. >> >>Yes! >> >>Thank you! >> >>Now we agree that the Engine does indeed find and evaluate the move. >>A great deal different, than the assertion it >> "doesn't find it or can't find it" > >When people say does not find the move they mean that it does not find that the >score is better for that move(otherwise engines can find every move). > >>> >>>>You know that! Or should! >>>>Don't tell us an engine doesn't or can't find a move! >>> >>>It is a fact that engines do not find the move h5 in a short time in their >>>strongest setting that is with only one option >> >> >>Right, it doesn't 'show it' with you locking it in to only one variation. >>You now agree with that. BUt it's found it and evaluated it, and dismissed it as >>not being the strongest move. >>At that time.. let it run >>and.. lose on time >>;) >>CY > >When I say does not find I do not mean that it does not search the move but only >that it does not evaluate it as stronger otherwise engines can find every move >and the discussion if engine can find some move is meaningless. >> >>>one option is the strongest setting because having an exact score for more that >>>one move usually make them slower and it is better for them to find only a bound >>>for the moves that are not the best in order to find that they are weaker. >>> >>>The fact that using some options can help to get better analysis is irrelevant. >> >> >> From whose standpoint? >>Unless the Computer is hooked up to ICC or Playchess, and makes the move >>automatically, it's not irrelevant. > >It is clearly relevant for the programmer who want the engine to play better >moves. > >It is also relevant for the user because the user is interested in the best move >and if he has not a lot of time to analyze he may believe the move that the >engine shows as best and not to the second move. > >There are advantages for using one option because the engine may search deeper >with only one option. > >Uri That is does.. But Human against Human is still more exciting ;) CY
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