Author: Evgenii Manev
Date: 07:39:38 05/08/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 07, 2005 at 18:45:34, Peter Fendrich wrote: >On May 07, 2005 at 18:21:47, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On May 07, 2005 at 17:32:27, Peter Fendrich wrote: >> >>>On May 06, 2005 at 13:17:44, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On May 06, 2005 at 13:08:31, Alex Schmidt wrote: >>>> >>>>>Hello Uri, >>>>> >>>>>>I think that we need to generate secret test that can be run automatically to >>>>>>detect if a program is clone of another known program and send it to Leo and >>>>>>Frank quisinsky so they can detect clones fast when they get one. >>>>> >>>>>a nice idea. The only problem is that the evaluation can be changed and the >>>>>moves can be different. So it would be necessary to write an own program that >>>>>can send special commands to the engines and seeks for identical replies. >>>>> >>>>>Maybe inbetween could be a good basis for such a program? >>>>> >>>>>Best, >>>>>Alex >>>> >>>>In the cases that were detected the evaluation was also similiar. >>>> >>>>similiarity in evaluation and in moves can be one thing to check automatically >>>>but not the only thing and it is better if cloners will not know exactly what is >>>>checked automatically. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>> >>>Uri, >>>You talk about secret positions but _someone_ have to know about these >>>positions. If for instance you or some other programmer develop these positions, >>>you can be a cloner yourself. I'm not accusing you of anything, it's just a >>>theoretical reasoning. Furthermore, if I was accused of that Terra or Alaric >>>were clones, based of some secret positions, I would demand to see these >>>positions and claim that someting is wrong. >> >>I do not think that you need to be afraid of secret positions. >> >>The secret positions will need to satisfy some conditions. >>They will need to show that all the free source codes are different >>in many positions in every stage of the game and that all the known clones can >>be detected by them. >> >>The target is that people who generate a clone and do small changes in the >>evaluation will not be able to escape from clone detection. >> >>Maybe if you do big changes in the evaluation you may escape from clone >>detection by the evaluation part of the test but I think that in that case the >>program will usually be significantly weaker than the original program. >> >>I think that after detecting clones based on secret positions it may be easy to >>generate different positions that prove that the program is a clone and expose >>them so the positions that are used can remain secret and in the worst case you >>may expose part of the positions after the clone is detected that is better than >>exposing all of them even before detecting clones. >> >>Uri > >I think that you misunderstood my post. I'm not afraid of secret positions. >My point was that positions can't be kept secret to everyone and who is to judge >who is to be informed? Vladimir could be one of them, before all this about >Patriot, couldn't he? Maybe only open source programmers should be the ones who >knew and the ones who provided positions? The problem is that such a suite of >positions and other test methods could be an excellent tool for a cloner. >/Peter hi Peter first -- grats for Terra :) -- i really enjoy Terra' playing and second -- 'secret positions' known only by 'open source programmers' there is an irony, don't you think? :) it sounds just like an logical 'oximoron':) regards, Geno
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