Author: Peter Fendrich
Date: 10:07:39 05/08/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 08, 2005 at 10:39:38, Evgenii Manev wrote: >On May 07, 2005 at 18:45:34, Peter Fendrich wrote: > >>On May 07, 2005 at 18:21:47, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On May 07, 2005 at 17:32:27, Peter Fendrich wrote: >>> >>>>On May 06, 2005 at 13:17:44, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 06, 2005 at 13:08:31, Alex Schmidt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Hello Uri, >>>>>> >>>>>>>I think that we need to generate secret test that can be run automatically to >>>>>>>detect if a program is clone of another known program and send it to Leo and >>>>>>>Frank quisinsky so they can detect clones fast when they get one. >>>>>> >>>>>>a nice idea. The only problem is that the evaluation can be changed and the >>>>>>moves can be different. So it would be necessary to write an own program that >>>>>>can send special commands to the engines and seeks for identical replies. >>>>>> >>>>>>Maybe inbetween could be a good basis for such a program? >>>>>> >>>>>>Best, >>>>>>Alex >>>>> >>>>>In the cases that were detected the evaluation was also similiar. >>>>> >>>>>similiarity in evaluation and in moves can be one thing to check automatically >>>>>but not the only thing and it is better if cloners will not know exactly what is >>>>>checked automatically. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>> >>>>Uri, >>>>You talk about secret positions but _someone_ have to know about these >>>>positions. If for instance you or some other programmer develop these positions, >>>>you can be a cloner yourself. I'm not accusing you of anything, it's just a >>>>theoretical reasoning. Furthermore, if I was accused of that Terra or Alaric >>>>were clones, based of some secret positions, I would demand to see these >>>>positions and claim that someting is wrong. >>> >>>I do not think that you need to be afraid of secret positions. >>> >>>The secret positions will need to satisfy some conditions. >>>They will need to show that all the free source codes are different >>>in many positions in every stage of the game and that all the known clones can >>>be detected by them. >>> >>>The target is that people who generate a clone and do small changes in the >>>evaluation will not be able to escape from clone detection. >>> >>>Maybe if you do big changes in the evaluation you may escape from clone >>>detection by the evaluation part of the test but I think that in that case the >>>program will usually be significantly weaker than the original program. >>> >>>I think that after detecting clones based on secret positions it may be easy to >>>generate different positions that prove that the program is a clone and expose >>>them so the positions that are used can remain secret and in the worst case you >>>may expose part of the positions after the clone is detected that is better than >>>exposing all of them even before detecting clones. >>> >>>Uri >> >>I think that you misunderstood my post. I'm not afraid of secret positions. >>My point was that positions can't be kept secret to everyone and who is to judge >>who is to be informed? Vladimir could be one of them, before all this about >>Patriot, couldn't he? Maybe only open source programmers should be the ones who >>knew and the ones who provided positions? The problem is that such a suite of >>positions and other test methods could be an excellent tool for a cloner. >>/Peter > >hi Peter >first -- grats for Terra :) -- i really enjoy Terra' playing >and second -- 'secret positions' known only by 'open source programmers' >there is an irony, don't you think? :) it sounds just like an logical >'oximoron':) >regards, >Geno Thanks Evgenii! Yeah, some type of contradiction it is ... :-) It would be better with a method that could be used on a wide range of positions so the positions didn't have to be predefined. That would make the cloning world more difficult. /Peter
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