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Subject: Re: Topalov-Shirov , Linares 1998 Great Test Position!!

Author: Eelco de Groot

Date: 03:37:03 06/16/05

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On June 15, 2005 at 23:12:31, Brian Katz wrote:

>Does any program find Shirov's "Absolutely Incredible" only winning move
>1...Bh3!! in the diagramed position??
>
>
>[D]8/8/4kpp1/3p1b2/p6P/2B5/6P1/7K b - - 0 1
>
>I am using an AMD Athlon XP 2600+ 1 Gig DDR SDRAM.
>
>I have tried Fritz 8, Crafty 19.19, Shredder 9 UCI, Toga and Hiarcs 8...Neither
>of these programs have found this astonishing move, thus far.
>
>Best
>Brian

Hello Brian!

Maybe it would be interesting to post some analysis from your programs in this
position? I am saying that because, using Pro Deo, I get some very high scores
for Black when Black plays 1..Bg4 . With a tactical engine even +7.78. So I am
wondering if that move is not winning either. I don't know about 1..Be4 Have not
analyzed it myself, seems complicated, but the position has been discussed here
on CCC too. Are the settings missing something? I believe that only the Rebel
Q5T settings play 1..Bh3 At least they used to back in 2000 or so. Uri more or
less refused to accept that "because no program plays 1..Bh3" :)

He was right of course, tactical settings do not really count.

Have not tried the Q5T settings here with Rebel's successor Pro Deo.
Now I think Bh3 gets pruned, even with Vulcan Q settings, but Q5T is simpler,
has less switches and less pruning rules.

No tactical settings:

Pro Deo 1.1 Ripley:

00:00:00.5	2,08	10	391921	Bg4 Kh2 f5 Kg3 Kd6 Bb2 Kc5 Ba3+ Kc4 Bc1
00:00:00.5	2,11	10	494519	Bc2 Kg1 Kf5 Kf2 Ke4 Bb4 d4 Ke2 Bb3 Bc5 Bc4+
00:00:00.6	2,14	10	569116	a3 Kg1 Bd3 Kf2 f5 Ke3 Bb1 g3 Be4 Kd2
00:00:00.7	2,18	10	667530	Be4 Bb2 f5 Kg1 Kd6 Kf2 Kc5 Ba3+ Kc4 Bc1
00:00:00.8	2,22	11	930168	Be4 Kg1 f5 Bb2 Kd6 Kf2 Kc5 g3 d4 Ke2 Kc4 Kd2
00:00:01.1	2,28	11	1228761	Kd6 Bd4 Bc2 g4 Bd1 Bxf6 Bxg4 Kg2 Kc5 Kg3 Bf5 Be7+
00:00:01.2	2,28	11	1368541	Bc2 Kg1 Kf5 Kf2 Ke4 Bxf6 a3 Ba1 d4 Ke2 Bb3
00:00:01.7	2,29	12	2068624	Bc2 Kg1 Kf5 Kf2 Ke4 Bb2 Kd3 Bxf6 d4 h5 gxh5 Be7
00:00:02.9	2,34	13	3947605	Bc2 Kg1 Kf5 Kf2 Ke4 Bb2 Kd3 g4 Bd1 Bxf6 d4 h5 gxh5
gxh5 Bxh5 Be7
00:00:06.5	2,37	14	9151497	Bc2 Kg1 Kf5 Kf2 Ke4 Bb2 Kd3 g4 Bd1 Kg3 d4 Kf4 Bb3 h5
Bf7 hxg6
00:00:09.4	2,37	14	13525070	Bg4
00:00:10.5	2,62	14	15089527	Bg4 Kg1 Kf5 Bb2 Ke4 Bc1 d4 Bd2 Kd3 Bb4 f5
00:00:14.4	2,65	15	21407508	Bg4 Kg1 Kf5 Bb2 Ke4 Kf2 f5
00:00:27.3	2,81	16	43249265	Bg4 Kg1 Kf5 Bb2 Ke4 Kf2 f5
00:00:56.8	3,10	17	93482590	Bg4 Kg1 Kf5 Bb2 Ke4 Kf2 f5
00:02:23.4	3,18	18	242913668	Bg4 Bb2 Kf5 Kh2 Ke4 Kg3 f5 Kf2 Kd3
00:05:40.6	3,20	19	581631336	Bg4 Bb2 Kf5 Kg1 Ke4 Kf2 f5 Kg3 Ke3
00:17:03.7	3,21	20	1810354177	Bg4 Bb2 Kf5 Kh2 Ke4
00:43:23.2	3,38	21	383337281	Bg4 Bb2 Kf5 Kh2 Ke4 Kg3 f5

Tactical settings:

Pro Deo 1.1 Vulcan Q1e

00:00:00.2	4,00	8	35861	Be4 Bb2 Bxg2+ Kxg2 f5 Kf3 a3 Bd4 Kd6
00:00:00.2	4,17	8	60142	Kd6 Bxf6 Kc5 Bb2 Be4 Ba3+ Kc4 Bc1
00:00:00.2	4,35	9	103800	Kd6 Bd4 Be4 Kg1 f5 h5 gxh5 Bb2
00:00:00.3	4,12	10	234093	Kd6 Bd4 Be4 Bxf6 Kc5 Bb2 d4 Ba3+ Kc4 Bc1
00:00:00.6	4,30	11	596796	Kd6 Bd4 Kc6 Kg1 Kb5 Kf2 Kc4 Ke3 Be4 Bxf6 Bxg2
00:00:00.8	4,37	11	953572	Bg4 Kh2 Kf5 Kg3 Ke4 Bb2 d4 Bc1 a3 Bxa3 Be6
00:00:01.1	4,75	12	1298349	Bg4 Kg1 Kf5 Bb2 Ke4 Kf2 d4 Bc1 Kd3 Bb2 Ke4 Bc1 Kd3
Bb2
00:00:01.8	4,96	13	2409867	Bg4 Kg1 Kf5 Bb2 Ke4 Kf2 d4 g3 Kd3 Kf1 f5 Ke1 Bf3
00:00:03.5	4,89	14	5003172	Bg4 Kg1 Kf5 Bb2 Ke4 Kf2 Kd3 g3 d4 Ke1 Bh5 Kf1 g5 Kf2
gxh4
00:00:08.6	4,80	15	13880422	Bg4 Kg1 Kf5 Bb2 Ke4 Kf2 d4 Bc1 Bh3 g3 Kd3 Bb2 Bg4
Kg2 Ke3 Ba3 Ke4 Bb4 Kd3 Bd6 f5 Kh2
00:00:12.8	4,80	15	20763584	a3
00:00:15.3	5,60	15	25043264	a3 Kg1 Bh3 Kf2 Kf5 g3 Ke4 Ke2 d4 Ba1 Be6
00:00:25.2	5,64	16	42240078	a3 Kg1 Bh3 Kf2 Kf5 g3 Ke4 Ke2 d4 Ba1 Be6
00:00:35.5	5,64	17	61979896	a3 Kg1 Bh3 Kf2 Kf5 g3 Ke4 Ke2 d4 Ba1 Be6
00:01:23.6	6,01	18	152755207	a3 Kg1 Bh3 Kf2 Kf5 g3 Ke4 Ke2 d4 Ba1 f5 Kd2 Kf3
Bxd4 Kxg3 Kc3 f4 Kb3 f3
00:01:33.5	6,01	18	168197678	Bg4
00:01:54.1	6,47	18	204724819	Bg4 Kg1 Kf5 Bb2 Ke4 Kf1 Bh5 Kf2 Kd3 Ke1 Kc2 Bxf6 a3
Be5 a2
00:06:09.7	7,35	19	673976446	Bg4 Bb2 Kf5 Kh2 Ke4 Kg3 f5 Ba3 Kd3 Kf2
00:14:13.3	7,78	20	1607551698	Bg4 Bb2 Kf5 Kh2 Ke4 Bxf6 a3 Ba1 Ke3 g3

I'm betting on Bg4!
Thanks for posting the position!

 Eelco




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