Author: Drexel,Michael
Date: 01:03:49 06/23/05
Go up one level in this thread
On June 22, 2005 at 21:49:25, Robin Smith wrote: >On June 22, 2005 at 16:17:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On June 21, 2005 at 23:00:37, Robin Smith wrote: >> >>>On June 21, 2005 at 18:36:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On June 21, 2005 at 16:44:21, Torstein Hall wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 15:30:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:19:44, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:11:23, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:04:37, Ted Summers wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>To sum it up " He played a drawish opening in a tactic way. " Not a good idea >>>>>>>>>when computers are able to hang with the best and proving themself as better >>>>>>>>>than humans in open tactical positions. However I still think GM Adams can pull >>>>>>>>>it together and Win or Draw this match. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>[D] r2q1rk1/1pp3pp/p2b4/nP1p1p1b/2PPn3/3B1N1P/P1QN1PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 17 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Having reached this position, we seemed to be watching the beginning of the end >>>>>>>>>for Adams in the first game but hopefully not the match. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>C4! was a killer positional shot. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>c4 was a good move, but hardly a "killer". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It seems clear GM Adams missed this move when he played Na5. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Perhaps Adams miissed it, but it hardly seems "clear", since Black is still OK >>>>>>>afterwards. His loss happened later. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>The problem here is that the kingside is already a bit open. One does _not_, as >>>>>>a human, allow the computer to open _both_ sides of the board in the same game. >>>>>>It invites a debacle such as this. Of course, he made a couple of tactical >>>>>>errors around the point where the rook on C8 was hanging, but he was already in >>>>>>the wrong kind of position... >>>>>> >>>>>>All the comps were suggesting the same moves as played by Hydra, so there was no >>>>>>real surprises from the white side, just black making an error here, an error >>>>>>there, before long he fell off the rim of the canyon. >>>>> >>>>>This is in my view far to general. Black was at least = uptil move 23.Be6 >>>>>[D]2rq1r1k/6pp/p2bB3/2p1Np1b/3Pn3/7P/P1Q2PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 23 >>>> >>>> >>>>Define "equal". Here I am considering the important detail that white is a >>>>computer, black is a human. In that regard, black is _not_ equal up to move 23. >>> >>>By that logic Adams was already much worse after 1.e4 no matter what he did. >>>Let's face it, Hydra is stronger. Adams will probably be under presure in every >>>game where he has the black pieces. >>> >>>> In fact, I don't believe black is anywhere near equal. >>> >>>He is equal unless you use your "considering the important detail that white is >>>a computer" logic. >>> >>>>He isn't lost, but he is far from equal and is at best fighting for a draw. >>> >>>>But in an open position. >>>>And he just has no chance in that kind of position. >>> >>>He was under presure, yes. That is a far cry from "has no chance". >>> >>>>But I would take white anywhere along the way in that game, as a human playing >>>>another human. And by the way, any move after the "knight to the rim" move >>>>finds white better IMHO. >>> >>>Your opinion is wrong, unless perhaps you mean that white had a very slight >>>advantage. That is the norm in chess, by the way. >>> >>>>>Adams played 23...Rc7 while 23...cxd4 looks like it holds everything nicely >>>>>together. >>>> >>>>Doesn't quite hold everything nicely together. The comps were at about +1 here >>>>already, went to +1.5 on the Rc7 move. >>> >>>Maybe Craqfty sees +1, but the top programs don't see anything near +1 until >>>_after_ Rc7. Before Rc7 black was fine. >>> >>>>But then the next few moves were mostly >>>>bad by black, turning this into a debacle. But if there were not so many open >>>>files, open diagonals, etc, black wouldn't have had to be worrying about tactics >>>>all over the board. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> One line could be 23...cxd4 24.Qxc8 Qf6 25.Qc4 Qxe5 26.Qa5 and black >>>>>looks OK to me. >>>> >>>>But white looks better to me there. Maybe not "winning better" but >>>>"significantly better". >>> >>>Try "very slightly better". Adams played well until Rc7. Hydra is very strong >>>and kept putting the presure on and finally Adams made a mistake. >>> >>>-Robin >> >> >>Again, let me remind you that I qualified my response to "knowing this is a >>computer vs human, black is exposing himself to difficulty." > >That is _not_ what you said. If that _had_ been what you said I would have >agreed. But your original statements were stronger. Here are some actual quotes: > >Hyatt:"black making an error here, an error there" > >In chess terms he made his error on move 23, not "an error here, an error there" >before move 23. In anti-computer terms, by your logic he should never should >agreed to the match, since 1...e5 is the defense he knows best and no matter >what he does he will be playing into Hydra's strength (either the "open game" or >else openings Adams doesn't know as well as Hydra). > >Hyatt:"he just has no chance in that kind of position" > >This is silly. Of course he has a chance. The odds are against him, yes. The >odds are against him when he has black no matter _what_ opening he plays. But >Adams on a good day will find a way to hold 1...e5 against Hydra, even if/when >Hydra opens things up. > >Hyatt:"Doesn't quite hold everything nicely together. The comps were at about +1 >here already, went to +1.5 on the Rc7 move." > >No. Maybe Crafty said +1, but the _top_ programs say ~=. > >Hyatt:"If your strength is in the same area as your opponent, but his strength >in that area is much greater, only an idiot would stick with that plan" > >You're calling Adams an idiot? This is the kind of statement I find really >offensive. What arrogance!! > >>I'd be fairly happy with either side against an equal human opponent. But >>against a computer, I want things blocked, not open. e4 e5 is the wrong way to >>block things up. There are multiple options after e4 that avoid many of the >>wide-open king-pawn type positions... >> >>He's done the same thing again today. f4 was the move I would play as white, >>_unless_ I was playing a computer. Before I would play f4, I would have to be >>_certain_ that I can win from that point. I would not want to leave the >>computer playing on both sides of the board, with a pair of bishops, pair of >>rooks and a queen still on the board. > >Then how come he got a draw today? > >>So again, my comments were based not on pure chess, but on the opponent for >>Adams... > >I believe Adams knows better than anyone else on the planet in what openings he >does best against computers. I think it is highly arrogant when people suggest >otherwise. The fact that Adams is a 1...e5 player does not help him, I agree; >but if he starts switching openings he will also have trouble, since now he will >be playing a computer that knows the opening better than he does. Wrong A computer generally has no idea how to play certain openings. Hydra is clueless either. It is known that Hydra uses a relatively small book. It would be not a big problem to get it out of book early similiar to the Kasparov- Deep Junior match. I have beaten Shredder 9.02 running on a Dual Opteron with Black in 30 moves at the CSS freestyle online tourney. The opening was 1.e4 h6? Do you think I play 1...h6 against humans in OTB games? I don´t suggest Adams should play it, although it probably isn´t worse than 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 :) Michael _Either_ way >is an up-hill battle. Adams might try 1...c6, since he has played that on >occaision, but anything else is highly unlikely and computers can put some real >presure on in the Caro too. > >-Robin
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