Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 13:56:35 08/20/05
Go up one level in this thread
On August 20, 2005 at 13:16:57, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >On August 20, 2005 at 10:55:52, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 20, 2005 at 09:28:03, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >> >>>On August 20, 2005 at 09:12:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On August 20, 2005 at 06:03:03, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 21:29:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 20:49:56, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 20:36:45, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 19:50:08, Richard Pijl wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:43:01, Thomas Lagershausen wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:26:55, A. Cozzie wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Here I screwed my book creator, because the horrible, horrible Fritz interface >>>>>>>>>>>resets the book options every time you touch the mouse, and played with >>>>>>>>>>>incorrect options. But somehow Zappa managed to slip into the win anyway; >>>>>>>>>>>perhaps it was a bit lucky. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>anthony >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Never play with the cb-gui. It had cost a lot of programs points in the history >>>>>>>>>>of wccc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I hope Zappa 2.0 is still uci and can be used in Arena. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>TL >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Zappa's book requires the CB-GUI >>>>>>>>>Richard. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I think that it is unfair to use books that require the CB-GUI >>>>>>>>If I understand correctly it means that the GUI choose the book moves and not >>>>>>>>the engine so the author is using something external program to help him to >>>>>>>>select moves. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I think that the engine needs to choose all the moves(otherwise the playing >>>>>>>>thing is not original work of the author and the authors of the chessbase gui >>>>>>>>should be mentioned as part of the team). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri Blass, the king of the absurd arguments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>1) For CCT7 and the Elhvest Match, I used the native format for Zappa. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>2) For WCCC2005, there are several engines that has been using the ChessBase >>>>>>>GUI. However, it doesn't mean that the Book was made by ChessBase. The Book >>>>>>>Responsible for Zappa in the WCCC2005 has been Erdogan whose book is in the >>>>>>>ChessBase format. It is his original work performed by several years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The engine is a complete original work of Anthony Cozzie. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If you are going to begin your post-WCCC2005 nonsense before the Tournament is >>>>>>>over, I suggest you find other hobby according to your absurd world, instead of >>>>>>>writing craps every day of the year. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>This argument comes up every year, and Uri has a valid point. >>>>> >>>>>To begin such argument where the Tournament is quite over is just absurd. >>>>>Erdogan's Book is in CB Format and he had only a few weeks to test Zappa. >>>>> >>>> >>>>I don't see the point. A book can be converted trivially. To PGN first, for >>>>example... But the point of the discussion is that the current approach is >>>>flawed, in a very basic way... >>> >>>No. Incorrect. A CTG Book from CB cannot be converted easily considering the >>>size. Not time to create a Book by hand in 3 weeks. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Although the ICGA doesn't seem to quite grasp the problem that many of us have >>>>>>pointed out. The opening book is a _significant_ part of a chess engine. Which >>>>>>means the code to select moves from that book based on some sort of algorithm is >>>>>>going to possibly play a significant number of moves, if not the majority of the >>>>>>moves in the game. Allowing someone else to write this code and then share it >>>>>>among multiple engines is simply wrong. Writing custom books is fine, but the >>>>>>chess engine author should be responsible for any code that makes chess playing >>>>>>decisions. >>>>> >>>>>While the ICGA doesnt care about format rule to forbid this, the discussion is >>>>>just a waste of time. Nobody can say that I have ever used a CB Book for a >>>>>specific engine. Erdogan has developed the book in several years and I had to >>>>>retire from the Zappa's behalf for personal reasons. >>>> >>>>Jeroen has done a book used by more than one engine in the same tournament. And >>>>it has been discussed both at previous player's meetings and here. And the ICGA >>>>seems to take the path of "let's not piss off the commercial companies as they >>>>contribute money with their 'professional' entry fees." >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>For example, we could have the following issues: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. If the GUI chooses book moves, and handles book learning, is it reasonable >>>>>>that the _same_ code be used in multiple engines? I tend to say "no". >>>>> >>>>>Invalid: Not time for learning, since Erdogan only had 3 weeks to tune his Book >>>>>for Zappa. He has already an incredible work. >>>> >>>>There can be learning _during_ the tournament to not repeat an opening that was >>>>not as good as planned. The engine should be responsible. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>2. If the GUI does the time allocation, tells the engine how long to search, >>>>>>when to search longer, when to search faster, handles multiple time controls, >>>>>>and so forth, isn't that a major function that a chess engine has to manage? If >>>>>>so, is it fair that multiple programs share this code since they share a common >>>>>>GUI? Again, I would say "no". >>>>>> >>>>>>3. If the GUI handles endgame tables, should the GUI be able to either >>>>>>instantly play a table move, or say "let's search, this is a draw, and we want >>>>>>to give the opponent a chance to make an error." I coded "swindle mode" into my >>>>>>program, along with code to handle missing tables (you have kpk but not kqk so >>>>>>your program might never promote without a fix.) Is it reasonable for a single >>>>>>author to write code to do all of that, and then have multiple programs share it >>>>>>in a tournament? Again, "no". >>>>> >>>>>Ir doesn't apply for Zappa because it access the EGTBs via Zappa and not by CB. >>>> >>>> >>>>I am talking about GUIs in general, if you are reading carefully. Not what >>>>happens for one specific program. But unless someone has turned off the GUI >>>>endgame database probes, the GUI will most definitely play those moves... >>>> >>> >>>I am not interested in your general debates. My point is particular for Zappa >>>and the conditions from which the CB Format was used. Period. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>4. Should a book author be able to write a book for multiple engines? Can he >>>>>>physically separate the two projects so there is _nothing_ in common? Of course >>>>>>he can't, and this is simply a bad idea. This has come up multiple times, and >>>>>>yet it never gets addressed properly, because it might "offend" a commercial >>>>>>company that sells programs that could share the book. >>>>> >>>>>It doesnt apply either for this case, since Zappa is using the help of Erdogan >>>>>and I was contacted by Diepeveen. >>>> >>>> >>>>I'm talking about the "general problem". Bruce Moreland raised the issue at the >>>>Paris WMCCC event, where there were cases of two programs using the same book >>>>author, which ought to be viewed as a no-no... >>>> >>> >>>The General Problem is not mine neither Erdogan. Erdogan is playing with Zappa >>>and I was called by Diep. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I have no problem with a GUI doing "GUI tasks". Recognizing moves, displaying >>>>>>the board, displaying the clock, etc. But the GUI has no place going farther >>>>>>and actually influencing which moves are played in a game. Because that crosses >>>>>>over into what the engine is supposed to be doing. GUI means "Graphical User >>>>>>Interface". Not "Graphical User Interface and front-end to make basic chess >>>>>>move decisions before letting the engine do anything." >>>>> >>>>>Zappa required a last hour booker and Erdogan was a great solution. On fact, >>>>>Zappa is winning the Tournament for now. >>>> >>>>And he deserves to win. But that has nothing to do with whether someone should >>>>be allowed to use someone else's code to play their book moves. That's the >>>>point here... >>>> >>> >>>In the Zappa particular case, Zappa had never used a book in an external Gui. It >>>was a particular situation. If the ICGA messes up with its rules then it will >>>have to update the Rules for the coming Tournaments. This is not my problem. It >>>is the problem of the ICGA. >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>In the Zappa case, I don't have any problem with it using a "book" written by >>>>>>anybody (so long as it is a one-user book and not shared.) But the current GUI >>>>>>is taking over too much of the game's complexity... Winboard/Xboard is an >>>>>>example of a reasonable "GUI". Just does GUI tasks. No book, no timing >>>>>>decisions, no endgame table probes, no nothing but relaying information between >>>>>>the user and the engine, exactly what a "user interface" should be doing... >>>>> >>>>>I don't really care if you have problems or not. Winboard is not a reasonable >>>>>GUI as far as it can't manage a simple book structure. Yes, I admire how Peter >>>>>Beger can stand the work with simple txt files, but he has had more thanb 3 >>>>>weeks to prepare the Crafty's Book. >>>> >>>>Aha. That is _THE_ point. The GUI should _NOT_ manage any kind of book >>>>structure at all. That is part of playing the game, and the engine should be >>>>doing the playing, not someone else's GUI... >>> >>>Well, I am sure Zappa won't do that in future Tournaments. He did not have any >>>option. I retired and he had to solve a big problem: Erdogan was. >> >> >>It would seem that you can't see the forest for all those damned trees... >> >>This has _zero_ to do with Zappa/Anthony. It is a discussion about a particular >>rule that says that clones are not allowed, and that a program that shares code >>with another or is derived from another is not allowed. My point is that the >>GUI book selection code is part of the chess playing program, rather than being >>just a GUI that has nothing to do with how the game is played. And doing that >>definitely violates the rules in place... > > >The discussion was raised by Blass because of the CTG format used by Zappa for >this Tournament. > >It has to do. You personal debate is not interesting now. It is relevant before >a Tournament not now. It was raised because he noticed the _same_ thing many of us have noticed in the past, that the GUI is doing more than serving as a simple user interface, it is playing the opening moves by itself, and that means that it is a part of the program, a major part. And it should not be allowable to "share" this part with several different teams, otherwise I ought to be able to share my parallel search code with all the non-SMP guys, etc...
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