Author: Arturo Ochoa
Date: 15:32:50 08/20/05
Go up one level in this thread
On August 20, 2005 at 16:56:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On August 20, 2005 at 13:16:57, Arturo Ochoa wrote: > >>On August 20, 2005 at 10:55:52, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On August 20, 2005 at 09:28:03, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>> >>>>On August 20, 2005 at 09:12:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 20, 2005 at 06:03:03, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 21:29:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 20:49:56, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 20:36:45, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 19:50:08, Richard Pijl wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:43:01, Thomas Lagershausen wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:26:55, A. Cozzie wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Here I screwed my book creator, because the horrible, horrible Fritz interface >>>>>>>>>>>>resets the book options every time you touch the mouse, and played with >>>>>>>>>>>>incorrect options. But somehow Zappa managed to slip into the win anyway; >>>>>>>>>>>>perhaps it was a bit lucky. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>anthony >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Never play with the cb-gui. It had cost a lot of programs points in the history >>>>>>>>>>>of wccc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I hope Zappa 2.0 is still uci and can be used in Arena. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>TL >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Zappa's book requires the CB-GUI >>>>>>>>>>Richard. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I think that it is unfair to use books that require the CB-GUI >>>>>>>>>If I understand correctly it means that the GUI choose the book moves and not >>>>>>>>>the engine so the author is using something external program to help him to >>>>>>>>>select moves. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I think that the engine needs to choose all the moves(otherwise the playing >>>>>>>>>thing is not original work of the author and the authors of the chessbase gui >>>>>>>>>should be mentioned as part of the team). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Uri Blass, the king of the absurd arguments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>1) For CCT7 and the Elhvest Match, I used the native format for Zappa. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>2) For WCCC2005, there are several engines that has been using the ChessBase >>>>>>>>GUI. However, it doesn't mean that the Book was made by ChessBase. The Book >>>>>>>>Responsible for Zappa in the WCCC2005 has been Erdogan whose book is in the >>>>>>>>ChessBase format. It is his original work performed by several years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The engine is a complete original work of Anthony Cozzie. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If you are going to begin your post-WCCC2005 nonsense before the Tournament is >>>>>>>>over, I suggest you find other hobby according to your absurd world, instead of >>>>>>>>writing craps every day of the year. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This argument comes up every year, and Uri has a valid point. >>>>>> >>>>>>To begin such argument where the Tournament is quite over is just absurd. >>>>>>Erdogan's Book is in CB Format and he had only a few weeks to test Zappa. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I don't see the point. A book can be converted trivially. To PGN first, for >>>>>example... But the point of the discussion is that the current approach is >>>>>flawed, in a very basic way... >>>> >>>>No. Incorrect. A CTG Book from CB cannot be converted easily considering the >>>>size. Not time to create a Book by hand in 3 weeks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Although the ICGA doesn't seem to quite grasp the problem that many of us have >>>>>>>pointed out. The opening book is a _significant_ part of a chess engine. Which >>>>>>>means the code to select moves from that book based on some sort of algorithm is >>>>>>>going to possibly play a significant number of moves, if not the majority of the >>>>>>>moves in the game. Allowing someone else to write this code and then share it >>>>>>>among multiple engines is simply wrong. Writing custom books is fine, but the >>>>>>>chess engine author should be responsible for any code that makes chess playing >>>>>>>decisions. >>>>>> >>>>>>While the ICGA doesnt care about format rule to forbid this, the discussion is >>>>>>just a waste of time. Nobody can say that I have ever used a CB Book for a >>>>>>specific engine. Erdogan has developed the book in several years and I had to >>>>>>retire from the Zappa's behalf for personal reasons. >>>>> >>>>>Jeroen has done a book used by more than one engine in the same tournament. And >>>>>it has been discussed both at previous player's meetings and here. And the ICGA >>>>>seems to take the path of "let's not piss off the commercial companies as they >>>>>contribute money with their 'professional' entry fees." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For example, we could have the following issues: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>1. If the GUI chooses book moves, and handles book learning, is it reasonable >>>>>>>that the _same_ code be used in multiple engines? I tend to say "no". >>>>>> >>>>>>Invalid: Not time for learning, since Erdogan only had 3 weeks to tune his Book >>>>>>for Zappa. He has already an incredible work. >>>>> >>>>>There can be learning _during_ the tournament to not repeat an opening that was >>>>>not as good as planned. The engine should be responsible. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>2. If the GUI does the time allocation, tells the engine how long to search, >>>>>>>when to search longer, when to search faster, handles multiple time controls, >>>>>>>and so forth, isn't that a major function that a chess engine has to manage? If >>>>>>>so, is it fair that multiple programs share this code since they share a common >>>>>>>GUI? Again, I would say "no". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>3. If the GUI handles endgame tables, should the GUI be able to either >>>>>>>instantly play a table move, or say "let's search, this is a draw, and we want >>>>>>>to give the opponent a chance to make an error." I coded "swindle mode" into my >>>>>>>program, along with code to handle missing tables (you have kpk but not kqk so >>>>>>>your program might never promote without a fix.) Is it reasonable for a single >>>>>>>author to write code to do all of that, and then have multiple programs share it >>>>>>>in a tournament? Again, "no". >>>>>> >>>>>>Ir doesn't apply for Zappa because it access the EGTBs via Zappa and not by CB. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I am talking about GUIs in general, if you are reading carefully. Not what >>>>>happens for one specific program. But unless someone has turned off the GUI >>>>>endgame database probes, the GUI will most definitely play those moves... >>>>> >>>> >>>>I am not interested in your general debates. My point is particular for Zappa >>>>and the conditions from which the CB Format was used. Period. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>4. Should a book author be able to write a book for multiple engines? Can he >>>>>>>physically separate the two projects so there is _nothing_ in common? Of course >>>>>>>he can't, and this is simply a bad idea. This has come up multiple times, and >>>>>>>yet it never gets addressed properly, because it might "offend" a commercial >>>>>>>company that sells programs that could share the book. >>>>>> >>>>>>It doesnt apply either for this case, since Zappa is using the help of Erdogan >>>>>>and I was contacted by Diepeveen. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I'm talking about the "general problem". Bruce Moreland raised the issue at the >>>>>Paris WMCCC event, where there were cases of two programs using the same book >>>>>author, which ought to be viewed as a no-no... >>>>> >>>> >>>>The General Problem is not mine neither Erdogan. Erdogan is playing with Zappa >>>>and I was called by Diep. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have no problem with a GUI doing "GUI tasks". Recognizing moves, displaying >>>>>>>the board, displaying the clock, etc. But the GUI has no place going farther >>>>>>>and actually influencing which moves are played in a game. Because that crosses >>>>>>>over into what the engine is supposed to be doing. GUI means "Graphical User >>>>>>>Interface". Not "Graphical User Interface and front-end to make basic chess >>>>>>>move decisions before letting the engine do anything." >>>>>> >>>>>>Zappa required a last hour booker and Erdogan was a great solution. On fact, >>>>>>Zappa is winning the Tournament for now. >>>>> >>>>>And he deserves to win. But that has nothing to do with whether someone should >>>>>be allowed to use someone else's code to play their book moves. That's the >>>>>point here... >>>>> >>>> >>>>In the Zappa particular case, Zappa had never used a book in an external Gui. It >>>>was a particular situation. If the ICGA messes up with its rules then it will >>>>have to update the Rules for the coming Tournaments. This is not my problem. It >>>>is the problem of the ICGA. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>In the Zappa case, I don't have any problem with it using a "book" written by >>>>>>>anybody (so long as it is a one-user book and not shared.) But the current GUI >>>>>>>is taking over too much of the game's complexity... Winboard/Xboard is an >>>>>>>example of a reasonable "GUI". Just does GUI tasks. No book, no timing >>>>>>>decisions, no endgame table probes, no nothing but relaying information between >>>>>>>the user and the engine, exactly what a "user interface" should be doing... >>>>>> >>>>>>I don't really care if you have problems or not. Winboard is not a reasonable >>>>>>GUI as far as it can't manage a simple book structure. Yes, I admire how Peter >>>>>>Beger can stand the work with simple txt files, but he has had more thanb 3 >>>>>>weeks to prepare the Crafty's Book. >>>>> >>>>>Aha. That is _THE_ point. The GUI should _NOT_ manage any kind of book >>>>>structure at all. That is part of playing the game, and the engine should be >>>>>doing the playing, not someone else's GUI... >>>> >>>>Well, I am sure Zappa won't do that in future Tournaments. He did not have any >>>>option. I retired and he had to solve a big problem: Erdogan was. >>> >>> >>>It would seem that you can't see the forest for all those damned trees... >>> >>>This has _zero_ to do with Zappa/Anthony. It is a discussion about a particular >>>rule that says that clones are not allowed, and that a program that shares code >>>with another or is derived from another is not allowed. My point is that the >>>GUI book selection code is part of the chess playing program, rather than being >>>just a GUI that has nothing to do with how the game is played. And doing that >>>definitely violates the rules in place... >> >> >>The discussion was raised by Blass because of the CTG format used by Zappa for >>this Tournament. >> >>It has to do. You personal debate is not interesting now. It is relevant before >>a Tournament not now. > > >It was raised because he noticed the _same_ thing many of us have noticed in the >past, that the GUI is doing more than serving as a simple user interface, it is >playing the opening moves by itself, and that means that it is a part of the >program, a major part. And it should not be allowable to "share" this part with >several different teams, otherwise I ought to be able to share my parallel >search code with all the non-SMP guys, etc... Well, raise you complains to the right organization and in the right time. Now, the Tournament is over. I gave my explanations but you continue this debate that is not relevant now. It is the work of chess Authors to press the organization that regulates such Tournaments. Crying in a Forum is not the most effective way. I dont care about general issues. I just give my explanation about the point raised from "the friend of the computer chess world" Blass...
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.