Author: Uri Blass
Date: 20:45:10 12/24/05
Go up one level in this thread
On December 24, 2005 at 19:08:15, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On December 24, 2005 at 11:18:44, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On December 24, 2005 at 10:56:25, Thomas Gaksch wrote: >> >>>it is very difficult for me to describe this in english. >>>first of all i want to clarify, that i always thank fabien for his great program >>>fruit and everything he did for computer chess. an of course he is a great >>>programmer and a great person. no doubt about that. i have never said anything >>>else. i also have never said that i am the great programmer and that toga is >>>full of new ideas. i have also never said that fruit wouldn´t be as strong as it >>>is without toga. >>>i just read the comments from ryan, uri, tord (programmers) and others about >>>toga and i am very dissapointed from their statements. but i think there are >>>some facts. >>>first of all the most important fact is playing strength. >>>CEGT 40/40 Fruit 2.1 = 2713 ELO >>>CEGT 40/40 Toga II 1.1 = 2767 ELO >>>CEGT Blitz Fruit 2.1 = 2703 >>>CEGT Blitz Toga II 1.1 = 2767 >>>and if you critizise me that i only wrote 47 lines of code for this improvement >>>than i think that is not a negative point. not the quantity of lines is >>>important. >> >>I agree that it is not a negative point. >>I did not attack you in my posts and I only defended fabien against attacks that >>claimed that you are better programmer than him. >> >> >>>and if you critizise me that i invented nothing new than i can only say that it >>>is true. why should i invent something really new, if it is possible to improve >>>fruit with known techniques. >>>you say that it is so simple what i have done. thats partly true. but believe me >>>or not i invested a lot of time in testing und finding the right techniques >>>which improved the playing strenght so much. if everything is so simple and fast >>>to implement, why hasn´t done it fabien in fruit 2.0 or 2.1? i think fabien >>>hastn´t done it, because he didn´t believe that these techniques would increase >>>the playing strength so much. there is absolutely no doubt about it that it >>>would be easy for him to do that. and it is 100% clear that he never used toga >>>code in fruit. but i think i showed him the techniques which worked in fruit >>>very well. so he saved a little bit time in testing this things because he saw >>>in toga that it will work. >>>i also said that i would never release a clone if it is not better than his >>>original. so if ryan writes derogative about toga than i only can say "do it >>>better". but you release one beta after the other and no beta is really stronger >>>than toga 1.1. so you see it is not so simple to improve an existing engine like >>>everybody thinks. >> >>I am not sure if you are right here >> >>http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/ratingall.html >> >>8 Toga II 1.1 2768 15 15 1319 60.8 % 2692 37.2 % >>12 Gambit Fruit 1.0 Beta 4bx 2743 39 39 229 51.5 % 2733 26.2 % >> >>The statistical error of Gambit Fruit 1.0 Beta 4bx is still too high to claim >>that it is not better than TogaII 1.1 >> >>Uri > >Good to see that you made this point, Uri. After reading Thomas one could think >that the difference found between Fruit and Toga of 50-60 points is a proven and >iron law. Also regarding the known fact that a newer version of a program is >_always_ "better". So - basically I cant understand this. If the author of the >original program would improve something the program would _also_ get better >results. What is the point of the whole debate? I mean the positive aspects. >(While we want to forget about the negative ones for good reasons.) Could you >give your personal view on the topic, please? The point is only that I contradict unproved statements. the claim of thomas was "no beta is really stronger than toga 1.1" It may be correct but it is still not clear. Previously I defended fabien against the claim that Thomas Gaksch is better programmer and showed that the claim that thomas had more success than fabien in improving fruit is wrong. Uri
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