Author: Vasik Rajlich
Date: 03:16:29 01/03/06
Go up one level in this thread
On January 02, 2006 at 19:09:12, enrico carrisco wrote: >On January 02, 2006 at 04:26:55, Vasik Rajlich wrote: > >>On January 01, 2006 at 17:06:43, enrico carrisco wrote: >> >>>I stated here in CCC days after Rybka was released that the nps was manipulated >>>but lacked any real convincing examples of this. I even ran the idea by Chrilly >>>when he was disassembing Rybka, but he had no comment on it. >>> >>>In the following position, we see two different evaluations for Rybka 1.0 Beta >>>64-bit and Rybka 1.01 Preview 2 64-bit. Of course, without knowing what >>>undocumented changes (if any) were made from 1.0 Beta to Preview 2, it's hard to >>>deduce anything concrete. However, Vasik has posted here a few times that >>>nothing was changed with the strength or eval (I believe... Not trying to quote >>>anything...) >>> >>>Specifically, the time-to-ply figures are odd. Preview 2 appears to slow down >>>in time to ply while Rybka 1.0 Beta seems to 'speed up' as the depth increases >>>(from nps figures.) >>> >>>The second position, below, shows the differences in nps better -- where the >>>qsearch demands a little recognition... :) Time-to-ply is very close (unlike >>>the first position) but the nps differs substantially... >>> >> >>Enrico, >> >>I already explained this here - did you really miss it? > >Hello Vas. Yes, I am afraid I did miss it. Do you have a link to the message? >I notice from Uri's reply to this thread it seems you posted something about >changing Rybka's node count.. Is this correct? I would be interested to read >your posting on this. > >> >>If you don't mind, I have two nosy questions for you: >> >>1) What is the Hiarcs definition of node? > >I'm not clear on what you're asking here with your inclusion of HIARCS. Our >definition does not differ from the general definition of a node (any move made >by the program in its "thinking" - i.e. updating a data structure.) > >Perhaps I am missing some sarcasm? > >>2) Do you have access to the Hiarcs sources? > >Again -- I'm not sure how this relates in the matter of my original question. >It is well known that Mark is the programmer of HIARCS. If my activities >included programming, I would be listed as a co-author. > >If the inference is that without a programming contribution to HIARCS my >knowledge or input on such a matter is discounted -- please just say so. > >However, I believe there are many knowledgeable programmers in this forum that >do not have a top 10 (or even 20) engine. > >If I've struck a nerve with you, it was not my intention. I just wanted to know >why the positions I posted gave varied eval by Rybka versions. I would have >assumed other posts in this thread which make very direct inferences to Rybka's >roots would have been more worthy of any sarcastic retort than my inquiry. > >Regards, > >-elc. > Hi Enrico, actually, I wasn't being sarcastic. It's just that I don't want to explain what exactly I do which doesn't leave much else to say :) The reason for my questions is that I suspect that Hiarcs is doing something similar to Rybka. The per-node tactical strength of Hiarcs is phenomenal. It would be interesting to compare notes although in practice this is unlikely to happen. (It's already unlikely that I find out who actually looks at the Hiarcs sources :)) Re. Rybka Beta vs Rybka Preview 1.01, I changed Rybka's node-counting to give partial credit for "extra work done inside a node". This was done to stabilize the nps figure as in Rybka Beta it can fluctuate wildly. Uri was quite displeased with this change :) Vas >> >>Thanks, >>Vas >> >>>Position 1 [time-to-ply oddness]: >>>[D]4k3/1b4R1/q3p2p/2B2p2/8/1R6/1K6/8 w - - 0 88 >>> >>> >>>Rybka 1.0 beta 64 bit 512mb hash A64-2.7 (CP GUI): >>> >>>00:00:00.0 2.40 3 65 Rbxb7 >>>00:00:00.0 2.41 4 435 Rbxb7 >>>00:00:00.0 2.65 5 1210 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 >>>00:00:00.1 5.63 6 2476 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 >>>00:00:00.1 5.63 7 4189 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 >>>00:00:00.1 5.63 8 8222 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Ka5 >>>00:00:00.1 6.50 9 16000 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Ka5 Qd2+ >>>00:00:00.3 6.56 10 41344 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ >>>00:00:00.5 7.43 11 118209 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ >>>00:00:01.0 7.43 12 200997 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ >>>00:00:02.0 7.43 13 477000 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ >>>00:00:04.0 7.49 14 987862 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ >>>00:00:08.2 7.49 15 2073381 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ >>>00:00:17.7 7.49 16 4778724 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ >>>00:00:49.2 8.35 17 19664761 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qb1+ >>>00:01:24.2 8.35 18 31087304 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qb1+ >>>00:02:51.4 8.41 19 66442682 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qb1+ >>> >>> >>>Rybka 1.01 Preview 2 64 bit 512mb hash A64-2.7 (CP GUI): >>> >>>00:00:00.0 2.40 3 946 Rbxb7 >>>00:00:00.0 2.41 4 2031 Rbxb7 >>>00:00:00.0 2.65 5 5626 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 >>>00:00:00.0 5.63 6 10221 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 >>>00:00:00.0 5.63 7 15896 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 >>>00:00:00.1 5.63 8 30368 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Ka5 >>>00:00:00.1 6.50 9 53606 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Ka5 Qd2+ Kb6 Qb2+ >>>Kc6 >>>00:00:00.2 6.56 10 111628 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ Kc6 >>>Qxg7 Rxg7 >>>00:00:00.6 7.43 11 238776 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ Kc6 >>>Qxg7 Rxg7 f4 >>>00:00:01.0 7.43 12 407147 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ Kc6 >>>Qxg7 Rxg7 f4 >>>00:00:02.6 7.43 13 1136628 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ Ka6 >>>Qa8+ Kb5 Qxb7+ >>>00:00:04.7 7.49 14 2097110 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ Ka6 >>>Qa8+ Kb5 Qxb7+ >>>00:00:08.3 7.49 15 3812588 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ Ka6 >>>Qa8+ Kb5 Qxb7+ >>>00:00:18.0 7.49 16 8337775 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ Ka6 >>>Qa8+ Kb5 Qxb7+ >>>00:00:59.2 7.49 17 29186799 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qb1+ Ka5 Qxb7 Rxb7 h5 Re7+ >>>Kf8 Rxe6+ Kf7 >>>00:01:50.9 8.35 18 55194222 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qb1+ Ka5 Qxb7 Rxb7 f4 Re7+ >>>Kf8 Rxe6+ Kg7 >>>00:03:30.0 8.41 19 104388523 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qb1+ Ka5 Qxb7 Rxb7 f4 Kb5 >>>f3 Kc6 f2 >>> >>> >>> >>>Position 2 [nps oddness]: >>>[D]r2qkb1r/1p1b1ppp/p1nppn2/6B1/3NP3/2N5/PPPQ1PPP/2KR1B1R w kq - 0 1 >>> >>> >>>Rybka 1.0 beta 64 bit 512mb hash A64-2.7 (CB GUI): >>> >>>9.Nxc6 >>> ² (0.37) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>9.Kb1 >>> ² (0.39) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>9.Kb1 >>> ² (0.32) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >>>9.Kb1 Be7 >>> ² (0.27) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >>>9.Kb1 h6 10.Be3 >>> = (0.22) Depth: 6 00:00:00 24kN >>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Nxc6 >>> = (0.24) Depth: 6 00:00:00 28kN >>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Kb1 0-0 >>> = (0.25) Depth: 7 00:00:00 49kN >>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Qe3 0-0 11.Qg3 >>> = (0.23) Depth: 8 00:00:00 93kN >>>9.Be2 h6 10.Be3 Be7 11.b3 0-0 >>> = (0.16) Depth: 9 00:00:01 215kN >>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qa5 11.Bf4 0-0-0 >>> ² (0.28) Depth: 9 00:00:01 259kN >>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qa5 11.Kb1 Be7 12.Be2 >>> ² (0.28) Depth: 10 00:00:02 389kN >>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qc7 11.Kb1 Be7 12.Bf4 Rd8 >>> = (0.21) Depth: 11 00:00:04 674kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 0-0 >>> = (0.23) Depth: 11 00:00:11 1658kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 0-0 13.Nf3 >>> = (0.24) Depth: 12 00:00:16 2429kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 Rd8 13.Nb3 Bc8 >>> = (0.20) Depth: 13 00:00:27 4147kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 Rd8 13.Nb3 Bc8 >>> = (0.19) Depth: 14 00:01:02 9484kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 0-0-0 12.Nxc6 Bxc6 13.Qe3 Kb8 >>> = (0.20) Depth: 15 00:02:28 23322kN >>> >>> >>>Rybka 1.01 Preview 2 64 bit 512mb hash A64-2.7 (CB GUI): >>> >>>9.Nxc6 >>> ² (0.37) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>9.Kb1 >>> ² (0.39) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>9.Kb1 >>> ² (0.32) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >>>9.Kb1 Be7 >>> ² (0.27) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >>>9.Kb1 h6 10.Be3 >>> = (0.22) Depth: 6 00:00:00 50kN >>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Nxc6 >>> = (0.24) Depth: 6 00:00:00 61kN >>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Kb1 0-0 >>> = (0.25) Depth: 7 00:00:00 103kN >>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Qe3 0-0 11.Qg3 >>> = (0.23) Depth: 8 00:00:00 203kN >>>9.Be2 h6 10.Be3 Be7 11.b3 0-0 >>> = (0.16) Depth: 9 00:00:01 442kN >>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qa5 11.Bf4 0-0-0 >>> ² (0.28) Depth: 9 00:00:01 519kN >>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qa5 11.Kb1 Be7 12.Be2 >>> ² (0.28) Depth: 10 00:00:02 752kN >>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qc7 11.Kb1 Be7 12.Bf4 Rd8 >>> = (0.21) Depth: 11 00:00:04 1250kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 0-0 >>> = (0.23) Depth: 11 00:00:11 3124kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 0-0 13.Nf3 >>> = (0.24) Depth: 12 00:00:16 4578kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 Rd8 13.Nb3 Bc8 >>> = (0.20) Depth: 13 00:00:28 7698kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 Rd8 13.Nb3 Bc8 14.Qe3 >>> = (0.19) Depth: 14 00:01:02 17348kN >>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 0-0-0 12.Nxc6 Bxc6 13.Qe3 Kb8 14.e5 dxe5 15.fxe5 Nd5 >>> = (0.20) Depth: 15 00:02:29 41641kN
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