Author: Uri Blass
Date: 03:40:13 01/03/06
Go up one level in this thread
On January 03, 2006 at 06:16:29, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >On January 02, 2006 at 19:09:12, enrico carrisco wrote: > >>On January 02, 2006 at 04:26:55, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >> >>>On January 01, 2006 at 17:06:43, enrico carrisco wrote: >>> >>>>I stated here in CCC days after Rybka was released that the nps was manipulated >>>>but lacked any real convincing examples of this. I even ran the idea by Chrilly >>>>when he was disassembing Rybka, but he had no comment on it. >>>> >>>>In the following position, we see two different evaluations for Rybka 1.0 Beta >>>>64-bit and Rybka 1.01 Preview 2 64-bit. Of course, without knowing what >>>>undocumented changes (if any) were made from 1.0 Beta to Preview 2, it's hard to >>>>deduce anything concrete. However, Vasik has posted here a few times that >>>>nothing was changed with the strength or eval (I believe... Not trying to quote >>>>anything...) >>>> >>>>Specifically, the time-to-ply figures are odd. Preview 2 appears to slow down >>>>in time to ply while Rybka 1.0 Beta seems to 'speed up' as the depth increases >>>>(from nps figures.) >>>> >>>>The second position, below, shows the differences in nps better -- where the >>>>qsearch demands a little recognition... :) Time-to-ply is very close (unlike >>>>the first position) but the nps differs substantially... >>>> >>> >>>Enrico, >>> >>>I already explained this here - did you really miss it? >> >>Hello Vas. Yes, I am afraid I did miss it. Do you have a link to the message? >>I notice from Uri's reply to this thread it seems you posted something about >>changing Rybka's node count.. Is this correct? I would be interested to read >>your posting on this. >> >>> >>>If you don't mind, I have two nosy questions for you: >>> >>>1) What is the Hiarcs definition of node? >> >>I'm not clear on what you're asking here with your inclusion of HIARCS. Our >>definition does not differ from the general definition of a node (any move made >>by the program in its "thinking" - i.e. updating a data structure.) >> >>Perhaps I am missing some sarcasm? >> >>>2) Do you have access to the Hiarcs sources? >> >>Again -- I'm not sure how this relates in the matter of my original question. >>It is well known that Mark is the programmer of HIARCS. If my activities >>included programming, I would be listed as a co-author. >> >>If the inference is that without a programming contribution to HIARCS my >>knowledge or input on such a matter is discounted -- please just say so. >> >>However, I believe there are many knowledgeable programmers in this forum that >>do not have a top 10 (or even 20) engine. >> >>If I've struck a nerve with you, it was not my intention. I just wanted to know >>why the positions I posted gave varied eval by Rybka versions. I would have >>assumed other posts in this thread which make very direct inferences to Rybka's >>roots would have been more worthy of any sarcastic retort than my inquiry. >> >>Regards, >> >>-elc. >> > >Hi Enrico, > >actually, I wasn't being sarcastic. It's just that I don't want to explain what >exactly I do which doesn't leave much else to say :) > >The reason for my questions is that I suspect that Hiarcs is doing something >similar to Rybka. The per-node tactical strength of Hiarcs is phenomenal. It >would be interesting to compare notes although in practice this is unlikely to >happen. (It's already unlikely that I find out who actually looks at the Hiarcs >sources :)) > >Re. Rybka Beta vs Rybka Preview 1.01, I changed Rybka's node-counting to give >partial credit for "extra work done inside a node". This was done to stabilize >the nps figure as in Rybka Beta it can fluctuate wildly. Uri was quite >displeased with this change :) The extra work that is done inside a node probably include recursive search of captures based on my observations(otherwise rybka could search more nodes per second in positions that have many captures in the root). 100,000 nodes per seconds on a fast hardware make sense but not less than 10 nodes per second. Uri > >Vas > >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Vas >>> >>>>Position 1 [time-to-ply oddness]: >>>>[D]4k3/1b4R1/q3p2p/2B2p2/8/1R6/1K6/8 w - - 0 88 >>>> >>>> >>>>Rybka 1.0 beta 64 bit 512mb hash A64-2.7 (CP GUI): >>>> >>>>00:00:00.0 2.40 3 65 Rbxb7 >>>>00:00:00.0 2.41 4 435 Rbxb7 >>>>00:00:00.0 2.65 5 1210 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 >>>>00:00:00.1 5.63 6 2476 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 >>>>00:00:00.1 5.63 7 4189 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 >>>>00:00:00.1 5.63 8 8222 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Ka5 >>>>00:00:00.1 6.50 9 16000 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Ka5 Qd2+ >>>>00:00:00.3 6.56 10 41344 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ >>>>00:00:00.5 7.43 11 118209 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ >>>>00:00:01.0 7.43 12 200997 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ >>>>00:00:02.0 7.43 13 477000 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ >>>>00:00:04.0 7.49 14 987862 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ >>>>00:00:08.2 7.49 15 2073381 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ >>>>00:00:17.7 7.49 16 4778724 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ >>>>00:00:49.2 8.35 17 19664761 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qb1+ >>>>00:01:24.2 8.35 18 31087304 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qb1+ >>>>00:02:51.4 8.41 19 66442682 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qb1+ >>>> >>>> >>>>Rybka 1.01 Preview 2 64 bit 512mb hash A64-2.7 (CP GUI): >>>> >>>>00:00:00.0 2.40 3 946 Rbxb7 >>>>00:00:00.0 2.41 4 2031 Rbxb7 >>>>00:00:00.0 2.65 5 5626 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 >>>>00:00:00.0 5.63 6 10221 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 >>>>00:00:00.0 5.63 7 15896 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 >>>>00:00:00.1 5.63 8 30368 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Ka5 >>>>00:00:00.1 6.50 9 53606 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Ka5 Qd2+ Kb6 Qb2+ >>>>Kc6 >>>>00:00:00.2 6.56 10 111628 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ Kc6 >>>>Qxg7 Rxg7 >>>>00:00:00.6 7.43 11 238776 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ Kc6 >>>>Qxg7 Rxg7 f4 >>>>00:00:01.0 7.43 12 407147 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qe2+ Kb6 Qb2+ Kc6 >>>>Qxg7 Rxg7 f4 >>>>00:00:02.6 7.43 13 1136628 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ Ka6 >>>>Qa8+ Kb5 Qxb7+ >>>>00:00:04.7 7.49 14 2097110 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ Ka6 >>>>Qa8+ Kb5 Qxb7+ >>>>00:00:08.3 7.49 15 3812588 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ Ka6 >>>>Qa8+ Kb5 Qxb7+ >>>>00:00:18.0 7.49 16 8337775 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qd2+ Kb5 Qd3+ Kb6 Qd8+ Ka6 >>>>Qa8+ Kb5 Qxb7+ >>>>00:00:59.2 7.49 17 29186799 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qb1+ Ka5 Qxb7 Rxb7 h5 Re7+ >>>>Kf8 Rxe6+ Kf7 >>>>00:01:50.9 8.35 18 55194222 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qb1+ Ka5 Qxb7 Rxb7 f4 Re7+ >>>>Kf8 Rxe6+ Kg7 >>>>00:03:30.0 8.41 19 104388523 Rbxb7 Qe2+ Kb3 Qd3+ Kb4 Qb1+ Ka5 Qxb7 Rxb7 f4 Kb5 >>>>f3 Kc6 f2 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Position 2 [nps oddness]: >>>>[D]r2qkb1r/1p1b1ppp/p1nppn2/6B1/3NP3/2N5/PPPQ1PPP/2KR1B1R w kq - 0 1 >>>> >>>> >>>>Rybka 1.0 beta 64 bit 512mb hash A64-2.7 (CB GUI): >>>> >>>>9.Nxc6 >>>> ² (0.37) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>9.Kb1 >>>> ² (0.39) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>9.Kb1 >>>> ² (0.32) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >>>>9.Kb1 Be7 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >>>>9.Kb1 h6 10.Be3 >>>> = (0.22) Depth: 6 00:00:00 24kN >>>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Nxc6 >>>> = (0.24) Depth: 6 00:00:00 28kN >>>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Kb1 0-0 >>>> = (0.25) Depth: 7 00:00:00 49kN >>>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Qe3 0-0 11.Qg3 >>>> = (0.23) Depth: 8 00:00:00 93kN >>>>9.Be2 h6 10.Be3 Be7 11.b3 0-0 >>>> = (0.16) Depth: 9 00:00:01 215kN >>>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qa5 11.Bf4 0-0-0 >>>> ² (0.28) Depth: 9 00:00:01 259kN >>>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qa5 11.Kb1 Be7 12.Be2 >>>> ² (0.28) Depth: 10 00:00:02 389kN >>>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qc7 11.Kb1 Be7 12.Bf4 Rd8 >>>> = (0.21) Depth: 11 00:00:04 674kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 0-0 >>>> = (0.23) Depth: 11 00:00:11 1658kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 0-0 13.Nf3 >>>> = (0.24) Depth: 12 00:00:16 2429kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 Rd8 13.Nb3 Bc8 >>>> = (0.20) Depth: 13 00:00:27 4147kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 Rd8 13.Nb3 Bc8 >>>> = (0.19) Depth: 14 00:01:02 9484kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 0-0-0 12.Nxc6 Bxc6 13.Qe3 Kb8 >>>> = (0.20) Depth: 15 00:02:28 23322kN >>>> >>>> >>>>Rybka 1.01 Preview 2 64 bit 512mb hash A64-2.7 (CB GUI): >>>> >>>>9.Nxc6 >>>> ² (0.37) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>9.Kb1 >>>> ² (0.39) Depth: 3 00:00:00 >>>>9.Kb1 >>>> ² (0.32) Depth: 4 00:00:00 >>>>9.Kb1 Be7 >>>> ² (0.27) Depth: 5 00:00:00 >>>>9.Kb1 h6 10.Be3 >>>> = (0.22) Depth: 6 00:00:00 50kN >>>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Nxc6 >>>> = (0.24) Depth: 6 00:00:00 61kN >>>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Kb1 0-0 >>>> = (0.25) Depth: 7 00:00:00 103kN >>>>9.Be2 Be7 10.Qe3 0-0 11.Qg3 >>>> = (0.23) Depth: 8 00:00:00 203kN >>>>9.Be2 h6 10.Be3 Be7 11.b3 0-0 >>>> = (0.16) Depth: 9 00:00:01 442kN >>>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qa5 11.Bf4 0-0-0 >>>> ² (0.28) Depth: 9 00:00:01 519kN >>>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qa5 11.Kb1 Be7 12.Be2 >>>> ² (0.28) Depth: 10 00:00:02 752kN >>>>9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.f3 Qc7 11.Kb1 Be7 12.Bf4 Rd8 >>>> = (0.21) Depth: 11 00:00:04 1250kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 0-0 >>>> = (0.23) Depth: 11 00:00:11 3124kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 0-0 13.Nf3 >>>> = (0.24) Depth: 12 00:00:16 4578kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 Rd8 13.Nb3 Bc8 >>>> = (0.20) Depth: 13 00:00:28 7698kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 h6 12.Bh4 Rd8 13.Nb3 Bc8 14.Qe3 >>>> = (0.19) Depth: 14 00:01:02 17348kN >>>>9.f4 Qc7 10.Be2 Be7 11.Kb1 0-0-0 12.Nxc6 Bxc6 13.Qe3 Kb8 14.e5 dxe5 15.fxe5 Nd5 >>>> = (0.20) Depth: 15 00:02:29 41641kN
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