Author: Dave Gomboc
Date: 04:50:10 12/07/99
Go up one level in this thread
On December 07, 1999 at 06:16:17, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On December 05, 1999 at 20:33:46, Dave Gomboc wrote: > >>On December 05, 1999 at 20:03:59, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On December 05, 1999 at 13:30:52, Albert Silver wrote: >>> >>>>On December 05, 1999 at 12:49:48, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 30, 1999 at 01:32:41, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 29, 1999 at 09:10:26, Albert Silver wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Guadeloupe isn't exactly a hotbed for strong chess players. I'm not sure how >>>>>>>much he can learn from such games. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Albert Silver >>>>>> >>>>>>I must concur, but am also compelled to comment that Christophe's war chest of >>>>>>386s isn't exactly a hotbed of speed either. :) >>>>>> >>>>>>Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>That's exactly the point. Using a 386sx-20MHz again and again against players >>>>>that understand where the weaknesses of the program are is a terrible test, >>>>>believe me. >>>>> >>>>>For years, they wanted to play against Chess Tiger because it was fun to beat >>>>>"the" computer. >>>>> >>>>>Tiger had no learning, and usually the same player tried to play the same >>>>>unsound king attack over and over until he won. Usually it took several trials >>>>>because the human player would do a tactical mistake. I did not prevent them >>>>>from doing so. >>>>> >>>>>I have learned a lot with this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Christophe >>>> >>>>I understand, and this brings to mind Ed's comment sometime ago in which he >>>>explained how hard it was nowadays to see where and when Rebel was improving or >>>>not, simply due to the depth and strength of the program. Naturally, it is much >>>>easier to see what it is doing wrong at 6-7 plies than 11-12, nevertheless the >>>>difference between a 2000 rated player and an GM rated 2500 is not merely one of >>>>depth of calculation. Naturally, the GM is calculating far deeper, but there is >>>>more involved. Suppose your program is getting 6-7 plies in a long game on your >>>>386 and as such you have really maximized the knowledge and performance >>>>according to what you have available. All the same, there are probably certain >>>>things that simply cannot be done on a 386 that could be implemented on a more >>>>powerful computer, because that more powerful computer has an edge that goes >>>>beyond merely doing the same thing the 386 does but faster. This is why it is >>>>impossible to properly compare programs like DB or Cray Blitz with other PC >>>>programs. That is why comments like "if Hiarcs ran on a Cray it would be >>>>stronger than Cray Blitz" have no meaning, as the program is inseparable from >>>>the hardware. I think that as hardware develops, new things are possible in >>>>programs that weren't possible in the past, but at the same time these newer >>>>generation programs won't be retro-compatible, because what they do is only >>>>possible with this new hardware. >>> >>>I'm seeing a big piece of crap here already refuted by De Groot >>>many tens of years ago. >>> >>>He investigated the difference between what we would call now >>>2200 players and international masters, >>>however at standards of these times it woudl be a comparision >>>between IMs and GMs >>> >>>One of the questions of the investigation was: >>>Do GMs see deeper? >>> >>>Answer: NO >>> >>>Do GMs calculate more lines? >>> >>>Answer: NO >>> >>>Please read some older JICCA's as well. >>>to get JICCA: herik@cs.unimaas.nl and herik@cs.rulimburg.nl >>> >>>One of those email adresses is valid i forgot which one. >>> >>> >>>> Albert Silver >> >>De Groot said this in 1965, but I've also read in more recent books that GMs >>_do_ calculate deeper than lesser players *when the position requires it*. >>So the issue is not completely clear-cut. > >let's not copare beginners with beginners, but let's compare GMs with >masterclass players. > >I'm sure that i see deeper and analyze more moves than someone >who just starts chess. That's not an issue. > >Compare the right guys with the right guys! My memory -- which isn't infallible -- suggests to me that GM Soltis made this comment about the difference between GMs and national masters. Dave
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