Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 05:57:52 12/07/99
Go up one level in this thread
On December 07, 1999 at 07:50:10, Dave Gomboc wrote: >On December 07, 1999 at 06:16:17, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On December 05, 1999 at 20:33:46, Dave Gomboc wrote: >> >>>On December 05, 1999 at 20:03:59, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>On December 05, 1999 at 13:30:52, Albert Silver wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 05, 1999 at 12:49:48, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 30, 1999 at 01:32:41, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 29, 1999 at 09:10:26, Albert Silver wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Guadeloupe isn't exactly a hotbed for strong chess players. I'm not sure how >>>>>>>>much he can learn from such games. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Albert Silver >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I must concur, but am also compelled to comment that Christophe's war chest of >>>>>>>386s isn't exactly a hotbed of speed either. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>That's exactly the point. Using a 386sx-20MHz again and again against players >>>>>>that understand where the weaknesses of the program are is a terrible test, >>>>>>believe me. >>>>>> >>>>>>For years, they wanted to play against Chess Tiger because it was fun to beat >>>>>>"the" computer. >>>>>> >>>>>>Tiger had no learning, and usually the same player tried to play the same >>>>>>unsound king attack over and over until he won. Usually it took several trials >>>>>>because the human player would do a tactical mistake. I did not prevent them >>>>>>from doing so. >>>>>> >>>>>>I have learned a lot with this. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Christophe >>>>> >>>>>I understand, and this brings to mind Ed's comment sometime ago in which he >>>>>explained how hard it was nowadays to see where and when Rebel was improving or >>>>>not, simply due to the depth and strength of the program. Naturally, it is much >>>>>easier to see what it is doing wrong at 6-7 plies than 11-12, nevertheless the >>>>>difference between a 2000 rated player and an GM rated 2500 is not merely one of >>>>>depth of calculation. Naturally, the GM is calculating far deeper, but there is >>>>>more involved. Suppose your program is getting 6-7 plies in a long game on your >>>>>386 and as such you have really maximized the knowledge and performance >>>>>according to what you have available. All the same, there are probably certain >>>>>things that simply cannot be done on a 386 that could be implemented on a more >>>>>powerful computer, because that more powerful computer has an edge that goes >>>>>beyond merely doing the same thing the 386 does but faster. This is why it is >>>>>impossible to properly compare programs like DB or Cray Blitz with other PC >>>>>programs. That is why comments like "if Hiarcs ran on a Cray it would be >>>>>stronger than Cray Blitz" have no meaning, as the program is inseparable from >>>>>the hardware. I think that as hardware develops, new things are possible in >>>>>programs that weren't possible in the past, but at the same time these newer >>>>>generation programs won't be retro-compatible, because what they do is only >>>>>possible with this new hardware. >>>> >>>>I'm seeing a big piece of crap here already refuted by De Groot >>>>many tens of years ago. >>>> >>>>He investigated the difference between what we would call now >>>>2200 players and international masters, >>>>however at standards of these times it woudl be a comparision >>>>between IMs and GMs >>>> >>>>One of the questions of the investigation was: >>>>Do GMs see deeper? >>>> >>>>Answer: NO >>>> >>>>Do GMs calculate more lines? >>>> >>>>Answer: NO >>>> >>>>Please read some older JICCA's as well. >>>>to get JICCA: herik@cs.unimaas.nl and herik@cs.rulimburg.nl >>>> >>>>One of those email adresses is valid i forgot which one. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Albert Silver >>> >>>De Groot said this in 1965, but I've also read in more recent books that GMs >>>_do_ calculate deeper than lesser players *when the position requires it*. >>>So the issue is not completely clear-cut. >> >>let's not copare beginners with beginners, but let's compare GMs with >>masterclass players. >> >>I'm sure that i see deeper and analyze more moves than someone >>who just starts chess. That's not an issue. >> >>Compare the right guys with the right guys! > >My memory -- which isn't infallible -- suggests to me that GM Soltis made this >comment about the difference between GMs and national masters. Soltis is a fool then who didn't do any research. I'm outsearching 90% of all gms in Netherlands bigtime tactical. i'm just 2233 and i lose chanceless from most of them, except in blitz... >Dave
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