Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 06:53:43 12/22/99
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On December 22, 1999 at 06:12:59, Amir Ban wrote: >On December 21, 1999 at 23:05:41, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On December 21, 1999 at 18:56:01, Amir Ban wrote: >> >>>On December 21, 1999 at 17:48:49, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On December 21, 1999 at 15:38:45, James T. Walker wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 21, 1999 at 14:54:47, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On December 21, 1999 at 14:18:05, Mike S. wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>This game is really horrible. I support what you say. Maybe programmers could >>>>>>>define a condition like "If no advancement (evaluation increase) is made for ten >>>>>>>moves, so accept a draw offer". The problem can also occur when a position is >>>>>>>theoretically won by the side which has a material advantage (which the computer >>>>>>>has and won't ever accept a draw therefore), but the computer can't find a >>>>>>>method to win. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Btw., has anybody ever got a draw offer from a program? I haven't. I would like >>>>>>>to see this also. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>M.Scheidl >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>If you watch crafty play on ICC you will see it happen all the time. If you >>>>>>play it on your own machine it will also offer draws.... >>>>>> >>>>>>and accept them when it is reasonable to do so. >>>>> >>>>>I assume you are talking about "The Crafty" and not Crafty Clones. My >>>>>experience with Crafty is that it continues to play for a "Swindle" when the >>>>>tablebases tell it the game is a draw. Crafty has other annoying habits like >>>>>resigning at "Mate in 1" when it has been seeing mate for about 15 moves via the >>>>>tablebases. >>>>>Jim Walker >>>> >>>>What is annoying to you is just sound chess. It has been in _plenty_ of >>>>drawn krp vs kr endings where the kr side made a mistake and lost. No reason >>>>to offer a draw until the opponent draws the game. It has been in several >>>>mate-in-N positions where the opponent couldn't mate (one was knn vs kp where >>>>it had the kp). Why resign? Make your opponent win. Remember Kasparov vs Deep >>>>Blue round 2? >>> >>>You are clouding a simple issue. The question is why crafty should refuse to >>>draw when holding a KR against a KRP, or, even more atrociously, KN vs. KNP. >>> >>>Amir >> >> >>If you play crafty (a human) and offer a draw if you have krp vs kr, it will >>accept _every_ time. If you are using a computer, and are on ICC's computer >>list, it will _never_ accept a draw. Because too many unscrupulous operators >>offer a draw every move, sometimes 5 times per move, in an effort to catch it >>in a programming error where it will accept. In one case, this happened about >>3 months ago which caused me to permanently disable accepting draws vs >>computers. Crafty had failed high vs Lonnie on ICC (running Fritz). The >>score was +4. But it had to move after the fail high with no PV. After it >>moved (a standard game) it did a short search (for the opponent) to get a move >>to ponder. During this search, the 'draw' offer came in, and the search said >>"I am way behind (it was searching for a move for Fritz, remember) so I will >>happily accept". Vincent pointed this out to me. I fixed the problem, but >>decided that "no more accepting draws" would be my policy from that point >>forward against computers. Against humans it behaves entirely differently, >>and most appreciate it. > >I fail to see the point. What's the relevance of being a computer to that ? How >does a problem in your program have anything to do with facing a computer >opponent ? > >Lonnie, as you perfectly know, hand-operates his programs, and the draw offer >came from him, not from the program. If you are refusing him a draw in clear >draw situations, you are behaving badly. You should at least feel bad about it, >but something tells me you don't care. > >Amir I don't know _what_ is up with computers operated by humans. But it seems to be 'common' to offer draws, and try other approaches to hang an automated program. There is one operator (not Lonnie) that will offer 10-20 draws during each move... probably with a function key and an alias I suppose. As far as "why" it is easy. I carefully log every draw it accepts so that I can check. I have never had a problem in a human game. But with a computer, it is definitely different with respect to timing. I simply choose to not leave the 'hole' open for those that seem to want to attempt exploitation. If it happens against a human, that's ok as it gets fixed anyway, and I haven't found many players that regularly play crafty that do that kind of thing. As far as feeling 'bad', I don't. I don't initiate games with manual computers. I have publicized this 'detail' about draws pretty well. If someone _still_ wants to play me, 'caveat emptor'... For automatic programs it isn't an issue, and for humans it still accepts draws normally... But the 'class' of manual operators has proven to be abusive in general, although there are plenty of exceptions of course.
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