Author: Mark Young
Date: 21:24:37 01/11/00
Go up one level in this thread
On January 11, 2000 at 22:45:52, Bruce Moreland wrote: >On January 11, 2000 at 18:25:44, Mark Young wrote: > >>No one is just talking about one game, i agree any program can have a bad game, >>even Ferret, and you know my opinion on Ferret. And it has nothing to do with >>like or dislike of the programmer. I judge Ferret on what it shows me in games, >>as I do with Crafty. And I don't think it is smear to express ones opinion on >>any program as long as it is accurate. The only smear I seen was to the person >>who wrote one article and devoted a few words to Crafty that were accurate. Now >>some on this board think it is insane to say Crafty is weaker then the top >>commercial programs, and it is smear to explain why it is weaker. So I think the >>only way to resolve a dispute like this is with some games. > >I didn't like Cock's article because I thought it used bad data to try to >support a proposition that Crafty was weak. I don't say that I am going to >fight to the death to prevent anyone from presenting that proposition. > >Pick a random person who doesn't like Bob, and have them write an article about >Crafty. Do you think it is possible that there'd be little truth in the >article, even if every sentence in the article were literally true? I can >easily believe this. > >Just take that Hiarcs-Ferret game and annotate it as if white is brilliant and >black is completely incompetent, and you'd have an article that is factually >true and yet allows hugely different conclusions than if you write the same >article about Ferret-Fritz. > >Perhaps the issue here is that Cock raised doubts in my mind about his motives >because of the way he presented his case. Even if everything is true I think >the article still stunk. Notice that I didn't argue against the truth of the >article, since I don't know if it is true or not. The article on a whole was of little value, but to try and say his motives in writing the article were designed to attack crafty is just pure fantasy. Crafty is only a small percentage of the article. If his motives were to smear crafty why even show a tournament result favorable to crafty? Maybe you know something I don't know about Cock and Bob that lets you read between the lines of the article and gives you reason to think his motives were to smear crafty and Bob. 1. Do you know Cock De Gorter personally? 2. Is Cork De Gorter the type of person who runs smear campaigns? 3. Does Cork De Gorter know Bob Hyatt personally? If so does Cork De Gorter dislike BoB Hyatt for some reason? 4. Does Cork De Gorter have any reason that you know of to attack Crafty for his own personal gain? > >I think people have a tough time talking about computer strength because very >few people are competent enough to analyze the games properly with their own >minds. Instead they use statistically meaningless short matches and >tournaments, analysis made by other programs, and emphasis on class-B mistakes >that every program still makes. > >If someone wants to talk about games from a higher-level perspective, I would be >happy to listen, and I bet Bob would be as well. > >Likewise, if someone wants to learn enough statistics to perform a match and >accurately express what the results mean, it would be hard to argue with the >result, although if this effort is undertaken as a precursor to telling Bob that >he's wasted his life, or something similar to this, it might reflect rather >poorly upon the experimenter. > >bruce
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