Author: leonid
Date: 14:40:47 01/31/00
Go up one level in this thread
On January 30, 2000 at 13:56:37, Christophe Theron wrote:
>On January 29, 2000 at 19:53:53, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On January 28, 2000 at 17:32:22, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On January 28, 2000 at 11:25:41, Amir Ban wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 28, 2000 at 08:11:13, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 28, 2000 at 06:09:13, Chris Carson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On January 28, 2000 at 03:22:28, Ed Schröder wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On January 27, 2000 at 22:17:53, Albert Silver wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On January 27, 2000 at 21:32:07, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On January 27, 2000 at 21:18:05, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>>>{regarding DB support}:
>>>>>>>>>>This is an unforgivable sin here or anywhere else. I think it quite funny
>>>>>>>>>>that (a) folks wonder why Hsu doesn't post here; and then (b) attack anything
>>>>>>>>>>they do as inferior.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I have said this before... They are far better than anybody (other than maybe
>>>>>>>>>>myself and a couple of others) give them credit for. Just continue to watch
>>>>>>>>>>the analysis of the DB logs. We suddenly discover that (a) they are searching
>>>>>>>>>>a lot deeper than some kept thinking; (b) their branching factor is actually
>>>>>>>>>>not much worse than the rest of us; (c) etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Best to wait and watch. Lots more will come out over time... But the
>>>>>>>>>>naysayers will _never_ be silenced...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I find it very puzzling the huge amount of absolute hostility towards Deep Blue
>>>>>>>>>[and HERE of all places]!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The last match was 1997. That's about 3 years ago, and we still talk about it
>>>>>>>>>almost daily. Nothing comes even remotely close to being as interesting as the
>>>>>>>>>Deep Blue match. Nothing has ever generated the publicity for computer chess
>>>>>>>>>like the Deep Blue match.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>And yet people are clearly *angry* at the Deep Blue team. Is there some sort of
>>>>>>>>>history that would explain it? I keep feeling that I have walked late into a
>>>>>>>>>movie and everyone is panning the hero, who seems like such a nice guy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Most amazing of all are the sort of persons who are irate. Almost always
>>>>>>>>>incredibly intelligent computer science types.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>*boggle*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's human nature. Remember that the last DB news wasn't three years ago but 3
>>>>>>>>weeks ago. Until this news, there had been at least two hopes, however remote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>- DB would somehow and somewhen be taken off the shelf and play another titanic
>>>>>>>>match against Kasparov (or anyone)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>- DB would be made available to all as a PC card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>DB was by far the strongest chess playing machine ever built. Nothing came
>>>>>>>>remotely close (except for its own predecessors). And now we are told clearly
>>>>>>>>that neither will ever happen and Hsu has gone off to greener pastures. Nothing
>>>>>>>>wrong with this, EXCEPT that Hyatt has made it clear that it is his belief that
>>>>>>>>NO ONE will reach that level for another decade because all of its secrets are
>>>>>>>>locked away. Everyone, including the programmers, feels deeply cheated. NO DB
>>>>>>>>and much worse: no way to build on DB so to get there you have to start from
>>>>>>>>scratch. This is simply terrible. It wasn't destroyed, the designers didn't die,
>>>>>>>>and the blueprints still exist; they are just locked away, and since Hsu has the
>>>>>>>>key, he is the butt of the anger. So the reaction is understandable: rather than
>>>>>>>>accept this, many would prefer to tear it down so the pain is lessened. If you
>>>>>>>>can believe it will only take 5 years to get there, it seems less tragic. That's
>>>>>>>>what I believe this is all about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Maybe the fact that they don't play is part of the game?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ed, that is my frustration, although I understand why
>>>>>>they limited play before the match, I am confused about not using
>>>>>>DBjr after the match with the SSDF or Computer tournament. There
>>>>>>is a financial conponent, as well as a reputation component. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>>>Chris Carson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>There is also this pretty important person with the title "Vice president of
>>>>>marketing." _HE_ makes all the decisions about P/R activities.
>>>>
>>>>It does indeed seems true that the way the Deep Blue project carried on was a
>>>>result of narrow commercial reasons.
>>>>
>>>>This may be an explanation, but not a vindication. A pioneering project that was
>>>>supposed to done in the name of science, and in a sense our entire 40-year old
>>>>field of computer chess, was made hostage to the short-lived, almost trivial,
>>>>interests of IBM Corporation. If we believe this to be true, then we should be
>>>>VERY angry.
>>>>
>>>>Amir
>>>
>>>
>>>I personally sensed a feeling of frustration in the DB guys when I talked with
>>>them. Particularly in the last match, the _real_ DB team was pretty well put
>>>in the background. The lawyers/marketing folks called the shots, made the
>>>decisions, told Hsu/etc what to do, when to jump, how high to jump, etc.
>>>Because it was a _BIG_ marketing deal to the folks at the top, and they wanted
>>>to extract every bit they could from it.
>>>
>>>I can only imagine how frustrating that must have been. Since Hsu no longer
>>>works at IBM, I can guess...
>>
>>Right we can't blame it on the programmers.
>>I blame Kasparov incredible though. See how well he played and how well
>>he kept positions a draw even with a pawn less in wijk aan zee 2000. Some
>>games he CRUSHED the opponents pathetically from opening. Home prepared.
>>
>>With his openings preparing he wiped out the best of the world again
>>previous week. All the pressure was on kasparov and he performed great again.
>>Kasparov handles pressure great, always did that. See his most important
>>matches against Karpov. Kasparov is born for pressure.
>>
>>Kasparov performs great in 2000.
>>He played great before 97 too.
>>
>>Yet when playing the computer Kasparov plays a kind of : "i don't care chess,
>>when it's too late i start playing some decent moves, still missing things".
>>
>>Like against deep blue he played without openingspreparement. Playing the
>>caro-kann in game 6, though i can't remember he ever played that with black
>>before.
>>
>>He doesn't fear the entire world top, but fears the openingspreparement
>>of deep blue, done by a retired grandmaster, who kasparov sometimes
>>at 20 boards at the same time beats in a simultaneous exhibition?
>>
>>Let's get real, the only one to blame is Kasparov, the
>>behaviour of Hsu was logical, from IBM even more logical, but Kasparov
>>didn't behave normal. It's hard to express in words that don't get
>>censored directly here... ...if kasparov just had drawn that 6th game,
>>or won that 6th game, then the whole deep blue affair would be completely
>>different. We would hear about the new micron technology that the new
>>chips were gonna use. We would hear about how many nodes a second the
>>new cpus would gonna get (as in 1997 the only important thing was nodes a
>>second for IBM, and Hsu sure did a great job in that respect). We would
>>not have heart about deep blue anyway. No one would make it worth mentioning.
>>People forget scores. People only remember who has won.
>>
>>Kasparov sucked in the only thing he is good at... ...winning chessgames.
>>
>>Vincent
>
>
>I can think about this from another angle.
>
>Actually, Kasparov has completely KILLED Deep Blue by losing only a 6 games
>match.
>
>If Kasparov had won, Deep Blue would still be alive, the team still working to
>improve it.
>
>Kasparov KILLED the thing, definitely.
>
>
> Christophe
Also all this people that work now in the field of chess programming are the
real killers of future chess game. Once all the programs will beat the human (we
are almost there), human will drop the game for ever. Why play the game that
humilate you all the time and indice you dealy feeling of unavoidable
inferiority?
Leonid.
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