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Subject: Re: Crafty 17-10 v Fritz 6a Nunn 1 @ 120'/40 + 60'/20 + 30'

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 04:42:12 04/27/00

Go up one level in this thread


On April 27, 2000 at 07:01:06, Mogens Larsen wrote:

>On April 27, 2000 at 05:10:16, blass uri wrote:
>
>>On April 27, 2000 at 02:16:48, Chessfun wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>All games on one Cel 433.
>>>Ponder=off.
>>>Tablebases used at 25 and longer.
>>>Nunn 1 positions.
>>>No opening books are loaded.
>>>
>>> 1 min game    Fritz 6a 14.5 - 5.5 Crafty 17-10
>>> 2 min game    Fritz 6a 14.5 - 5.5 Crafty 17-10
>>> 3 min game    Fritz 6a 13.0 - 7.0 Crafty 17-10
>>> 5 min game    Fritz 6a 15.5 - 4.5 Crafty 17-10
>>>10 min game    Fritz 6a 13.0 - 7.0 Crafty 17-10
>>>25 min game    Fritz 6a 13.0 - 7.0 Crafty 17-10
>>>60 min game    Fritz 6a 15.5 - 4.5 Crafty 17-10
>>>Tourney times  Fritz 6a 14.5 - 5.5 Crafty 17-10
>>>
>>>Once I figure out how to autoplay from the Nunn 1 opening
>>>positions I will play all games with ponder=on.
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>
>>
>>Total result 113.5-46.5 indicates 167.5 elo difference between Crafty and
>>Fritz6a
>>when there is no pondering in the nunn game.
>>
>>tourney game indicates 180 elo difference and there is no significant
>>difference.
>>
>>The reason may be that nunn1 positions are not good and it is better to use the
>>nunn match with positions for practical games(It seemed to me that crafty earns
>>more from time based on the ssdf results but maybe I am wrong and Crafty is not
>>more than 100 elo weaker than Fritz6a also in blitz).
>
>I think I know by now, why the Nunn position(s) has been used in this test and
>the reason is defendable. But in general I don't think it's a good idea to use
>them for testing purposes. A computer chess program is a package deal. If you
>purposely remove certain elements, ie. opening book or ponder, you get results
>that are purely of academic interest. I your're adament of making a direct
>engine to engine comparison _everything_ should be removed including EGTB (if
>you're real zealous a third party GUI should be used). And no starting position
>should be chosen, which includes Nunn. That's my opinion.
>
>Best wishes...
>Mogens Chr. Larsen
>http://home1.stofanet.dk/Moq/
>
>"If virtue can't be mine alone,
>at least my faults can be my own."



This discussion has happened before.  The idea has its plusses and minuses.

The main plus is that it eliminates 'cooking a book'.

The main minus is that even if a program would _never_ play a particular
opening in real games, because (perhaps) it isn't well-tuned for some types
of pawn structures, it still has to play the position in this particular
game.  Humans don't play like that.. IE I won't play the french as black
because I don't like the cramped position.  I won't play the Colle-type
positions for the same reason.  Ditto closed sicilian as white.

It is an interesting test, maybe, although I have never looked at the positions
to see what they look like, but it really doesn't say much about how real games
will be played, since _everybody_ gets to pick their own openings in real games.



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