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Subject: Re: Tiviakov vs. Fritz

Author: Lanny DiBartolomeo

Date: 23:38:49 05/16/00

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On May 16, 2000 at 23:54:22, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On May 16, 2000 at 22:52:20, blass uri wrote:
>
>>On May 16, 2000 at 22:25:11, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On May 16, 2000 at 22:01:46, Hans Gerber wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 16, 2000 at 20:39:21, Charles Milton Ling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On May 16, 2000 at 19:31:15, Hans Gerber wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On May 16, 2000 at 19:04:16, Charles Milton Ling wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It seems apparent to me that the only way to resolve the problem this game
>>>>>>>seemingly posed is that computers (or their operators) NEVER offer draws.  Have
>>>>>>>fun, humans.  (And you won't even be able to protest anymore.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think the rules already say that. F. Morsch should not have offered a draw.
>>>>>>But the computer could have been programmed for such draws. Then the draw could
>>>>>>be offered. But not in a position with -2. This would be improper behavior
>>>>>>anyway. Exception technical draws.
>>>>>
>>>>>To repeat: computer NEVER offers draws.  No arguments possible, no debate.
>>>>>
>>>>>(As far as improper behaviour is concerned, it is always legitimate to offer a
>>>>>draw ONCE, regardless of position.  Not necessarily nice, but acceptable.  GMs
>>>>>do it all the time.  You'll have to trust me on this.)
>>>>>
>>>>>Charley
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ok, I trust you. But here we have a different case. According to the rules
>>>>Tiviakov couldn't lose the game. He had already a draw in his hands. But he had
>>>>a won position. At that moment the operator offered a draw. _Very_ bad behavior.
>>>>Tiviakov continued to play, was irritated, blundered and then offered the draw
>>>>he could already have moves ago.
>>>
>>>
>>>Please stop quoting something that is _not_ true.  Tiviakov did _not_ "have a
>>>draw in hand".  He was facing a certain loss on time. He had no grounds to claim
>>>a draw.  a one or two pawn margin is _not_ an automatic win.  Fritz was ahead +2
>>>a couple of rounds back and still drew.  So that pig won't fly.  The rules don't
>>>allow a draw claim under these circumstances...  to suggest they do is
>>>ridiculous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>To make a funny joke, F. Morsch could also have asked Tiviakov "Mr. Tiviakov, my
>>>>assumption is probably correct that your name is Tiviakov, is that true?" I
>>>>think you would understand that as improper behavior. But F. Morsch did nothing
>>>>else. He offered something, Tiviakov already had!
>>>
>>>
>>>He offered a draw.  Tiviakov only had a loss.  Draw is better than loss.  He
>>>did the GM a favor.
>>
>>It is clear that the GM did not want a draw  so offering a draw when you know
>>the other side does not want the draw is a bad behaviour.
>>
>>It is legal to do it (at least in human-human games) but it does not change the
>>fact that it is a bad behaviour.
>>
>>I think that tiviakov can draw against everyone in the final position in 2
>>minutes/game because if the target is only to draw it is easy to do it.
>>
>>Uri
>
>
>(a) I don't think the GM had any inkling of how the computer plays chess.  In
>that position, _any_ human would avoid the repetition, knowing the opponent was
>going to lose on time.
>
>(b) if I were in the GM's shoes, I would be playing for a win.  But I would
>certainly appreciate the sportsmanship of the draw offer and accept it if I
>thought I could not win before I flagged.
>
>(c) Frans had no way to know whether (1) the GM would refuse or (2) the GM was
>more than willing to accept since he was losing on time.  The only way to answer
>the question was to ask.

I Believe this is absolutely correct,
 He was being a nice person by offering a draw and I am certain he didn't expect
anyone to be upset over it.



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