Author: blass uri
Date: 23:09:14 07/17/00
Go up one level in this thread
On July 18, 2000 at 02:00:31, Ed Schröder wrote: >On July 17, 2000 at 20:08:06, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On July 17, 2000 at 17:02:22, Peter Kappler wrote: >> >>>On July 17, 2000 at 16:09:09, Amir Ban wrote: >>> >>>>On July 17, 2000 at 07:22:41, Graham Laight wrote: >>>> >>>>>I'm afraid I still feel that Junior could have come out ahead (instead of >>>>>level)in this tournament by beating Bareev and Khalifman - and possibly by not >>>>>losing with such apparent ease to Kramnik. Continuing the game against Anand >>>>>might possibly have gained an extra half point as well. >>>>> >>>>>I think that Amir has an aspiration to make his program demonstably better than >>>>>Deep Blue (this certainly comes across in his interviews published on the >>>>>Chessbase Website coverage of Dortmund (www.chessbase.com) before the Kramnik >>>>>game). If so, as a (hopefully!) impartial member of the viewing public, I'm >>>>>afraid to say that I've yet to be convinced. >>>>> >>>>>As evidence, I point firstly to the games against Bareev and Khalifman. On both >>>>>occasions when Deep Blue '97 gained an advantage over Gary Kasparov (who's a >>>>>better player than anyone at Dortmund was), it parlayed that advantage into >>>>>victory - whilst Deep Junior twice failed conspicuously to "slam in the lamb". >>>>> >>>>>I would also point to the game against Khalifman. Here we see Deep Junior lose >>>>>to a combination of blocked centre and king attack - classic anti computer >>>>>methods which have both been well known for a long time. They work because, in >>>>>this case, nothing short of truly massive search depth is going to help you to >>>>>make the correct moves. >>>>> >>>>>However, for both king attack and blocked centre, Deep Blue '97 demonstrated >>>>>that it's evaluation knowledge was able to adequately handle the challenge. >>>>>Indeed, in game 2 in '97, Deep Blue not only handled the blocked centre, it >>>>>turned it into a win! >>>>> >>>>>It took Deep Blue 2 attempts to beat Gary Kasparov, the world's best player - >>>>>maybe another year of work will push Deep Junior to a position where it can try >>>>>to win these tournaments, instead of settling for a middling position. >>>>> >>>>>But let's not be completely churlish - Dortmund 2000 was indeed a fantastic >>>>>performance by Deep Junior - and a landmark in computer chess history, since >>>>>here is both a computer and a program which one can buy in the shops! >>>> >>>>I disagree with most of this, but it's your opinion, and if experience teaches >>>>us anything, it's useless to argue. >>>> >>>>For the record, I'm not trying to prove that I'm better than Deep Blue. I think >>>>I've already shown this some time ago, and I'm not the only one who can say so >>>>either. >>>> >>>>Looking at the (very few) games of DB, I don't see that it had either better >>>>evaluation or deeper search than today's top programs. >>>> >>>>Amir >>> >>> >>>I must say I'm skeptical, though I would have a good laugh if it were true. >>> >>>Are you aware of any positions from the 2nd Kasparov-DB match where Junior (or >>>any other micro) plays a clearly better move than DB? Not that this would >>>conclusively prove a thing - it would just be interesting. >>> >>>--Peter >> >>Or we can take a few of the positions from the DB log files and try them on >>"top programs". I'm not aware of any "top program" that can do 16-18 plies >>in the middlegame... > >Please post these positions that would be fun and you might be surprised >about the outcome. But the key-moves must be clear as there should be no >discussion what is the best move. I for example don't believe the Rc6 vs >Rc7 is a good position as this is a case of 0.10 (or so) in evaluation. > >Ed I think that the point of Bob is that Deeper blue did deeper search than Deep Junior when Amir claimed: "Looking at the (very few) games of DB, I don't see that it had either better evaluation or deeper search than today's top programs." I think that the question is if to believe the 16-18 brute force search(claimed by IBM). I think that Amir does not believe it and there is no possibility to check when Deeper is dead and there is no commercial Deep blue chip. Uri
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.