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Subject: Re: Tiger against Deep Blue Junior: what really happened.

Author: Alvaro Polo

Date: 23:45:14 07/25/00

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On July 25, 2000 at 17:29:34, Ed Schröder wrote:

>On July 25, 2000 at 16:54:39, Alvaro Polo wrote:
>
>>On July 25, 2000 at 15:51:30, Ed Schröder wrote:
>>
>>>On July 25, 2000 at 14:39:59, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 25, 2000 at 11:15:45, Ed Schröder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On July 25, 2000 at 10:44:20, Chris Carson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On July 25, 2000 at 10:19:10, Ed Schröder wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On July 25, 2000 at 08:44:57, Dave Gomboc wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>- the "1 million nodes/sec" figure is a peak figure, not an average
>>>>>>>>  - average is 200k nodes/sec
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From the IBM site (may 1997):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   "Deep Blue was now capable of examining and
>>>>>>>    evaluating an average of 100
>>>>>>>    million chess positions per
>>>>>>>    second."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks Ed!  Accurate and factual as always.  :)
>>>>>
>>>>>Somewhere else the 200M is mentioned (as a peak?). The text also mentions
>>>>>DB doing some pre-processor stuff (I think).
>>>>
>>>>This is all scrambled.  Here are the right numbers:
>>>>
>>>>single chip:  2M or 2.4M nodes per second.
>>>>
>>>>DB2 (1997 Kasparov match):
>>>>
>>>>480 chess chips, half at 2M, half at 2.4M nodes per second.  1B nodes per
>>>>second peak, 700M nodes per second actually searched, roughly 70% of those
>>>>nodes are often referred to as "search overhead" reducing the effective NPS
>>>>for DB2 to 200M.  DB1 (1996 Kasparov match) searched 100M effective nodes per
>>>>second...
>>>>
>>>>Those are straight from Hsu, so I feel pretty sure they are right...  The others
>>>>are smeared across a time line that contains DB1 _and_ DB2...  Where DB2 was
>>>>2x faster + move eval.
>>>
>>>The IBM pages say 256 processors and not 480. How come that Hsu's
>>>informations don't correlate with IBM's all the time?
>>>
>>>And now we have a new item. It was not 200M nodes but suddenly it is
>>>1000M nodes said by Hsu. Again it contradicts the IBM pages you know.
>>>
>>>Maybe you should not use the name of Hsu so much speaking on his behalf.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I worked for IBM as a scientist at the IBM Scientific Center in Madrid. I would
>>very much more trust Hsu's number than "official IBM" numbers. PR's and
>>marketers at IBM are not stupid people (my father was a country general manager
>>there), they are on the contrary very intelligent, but they don't care that much
>>about scientific exactness in documents directed to the general public. They
>>probably wouldn't understand very well, for example, why the difference between
>>256 and 480 processors is significant.
>>
>>Alvaro
>
>With all respect to your opinion I believe that P/R people very well
>understand the value of numbers. If they don't they would do a very
>poor job which I find hard to believe.
>
>Ed

They understand the numbers, but they don't care the same about scientific
exactness if they are published in a web site for the general public and if they
are published in, for example, "IBM Proceedings" (this one is serious).

Alvaro

>
>
>>>>>Quote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   "Deep Blue uses "live" software that can actually generate up
>>>>>    to 200,000,000 positions per second when searching for
>>>>>    the optimum move. The software begins this process by
>>>>>    taking a strategic look at the board. It then computes
>>>>>    everything it knows about the current position, integrates
>>>>>    the chess information pre-programmed by the development
>>>>>    team, and then generates a multitude of new possible
>>>>>    arrangements. From these, it then chooses its best possible
>>>>>    next move."
>>>>>
>>>>>Ed
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sounds like something written for the general public, by someone that didn't
>>>>have any idea of how a computer plays chess in general.  IE someone in a P/R
>>>>department writing about something he "thinks" he understands.  The words sound
>>>>good.  The paragraph is nearly meaningless..
>>>
>>>"Sounds like..."
>>>
>>>"The paragraph is nearly meaningless......"
>>>
>>>"IBM P/R people are stupid......"
>>>
>>>Be careful, IBM might sue you one day :)
>>>
>>>Ed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>>>Chris Carson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  - you will have to verify for yourself if that figure is for one chip or more
>>>>>>>>- whether db uses forward pruning or not is obviously not clear
>>>>>>>>  - bob says it doesn't
>>>>>>>>  - article i read implies it does
>>>>>>>>  - db logs also imply it according to ed
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Dave



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