Author: Mark Young
Date: 13:59:40 08/09/00
Go up one level in this thread
On August 09, 2000 at 15:11:20, Dann Corbit wrote: >On August 09, 2000 at 02:28:25, Mark Young wrote: > >>On August 08, 2000 at 17:37:44, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On August 08, 2000 at 16:29:59, walter irvin wrote: >>> >>>>On August 08, 2000 at 10:33:34, Peter Hegger wrote: >>>> >>>>>Hello, >>>>>This has probably been done to a certain extent already. I'm wondering how the >>>>>games of the old masters, i.e. Morphy, Steinitz, Tarrasch etc...stand up under >>>>>the scrutiny of today's best computers. Are the games still as clean and >>>>>brilliant as they seemed to be a hundred years ago? Or have they been found to >>>>>be error ridden relics of days gone by? >>>>>I'm wondering in particular about the "evergreen" and the "immortal" games. >>>>>Also, Bobby Fischer's "game of the century" against Byrne. >>>>>Thanks for any help you can give me. >>>>>Best Regards, >>>>>Peter >>>> i think you will find that the computer almost always out does the master in >>>>key positions .computers crush just about all players in tactics . >>> >>>I disagree. >>>They are better in short tactics but humans are better in long tactics. >>> >>> i guess the >>>>the big question is could the computer reach a key position vs morphy ect >>>>??????????? i think there are some old masters that had styles that a computer >>>>just could not deal with 2 that come to mind are nimzovitch and petrosian .they >>>>were masters of the closed position game .i think they would have laughed at >>>>computers .on the other hand tactical masters like marshal morphy ect would have >>>>got sliced and diced . >>> >>>Here is one winning moves of morphy >>> >>>[D]r1bq1rk1/ppp3p1/7p/3P2n1/2PQ1p2/1N5P/PPP2PPK/R1B2R2 b - - 0 1 >>> >>>Morphy won by Nf3+ >>>programs need a long time to find this move because they cannot see deep enough. >> >>This position is right up Fritz 6a's power alley, it was able to find Nf3+ in >>less then 1 min. >> >> >>New position >>r1bq1rk1/ppp3p1/7p/3P2n1/2PQ1p2/1N5P/PPP2PPK/R1B2R2 b - - 0 1 >> >>Analysis by Fritz 6: >> >>1...Bxh3 >> +- (3.06) depth: 1/3 00:00:00 >>1...Bxh3 2.gxh3 >> +- (3.53) depth: 1/3 00:00:00 >>1...f3 >> +- (2.91) depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >>1...f3 >> ± (1.37) depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >>1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 >> ± (1.37) depth: 2/8 00:00:00 >>1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.g3 >> ± (1.22) depth: 3/12 00:00:00 >>1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 fxg2 4.Rxg2 >> ± (1.19) depth: 4/12 00:00:00 2kN >>1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 fxg2 5.Rxg2 >> ± (1.31) depth: 5/21 00:00:00 13kN >>1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 fxg2 5.Rxg2 >> ± (1.31) depth: 6/20 00:00:00 27kN >>1...Bxh3! >> ± (1.28) depth: 6/20 00:00:00 51kN >>1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bf5 3.c3 Qe8 4.Bxf4 Qh5+ 5.Kg1 >> ± (1.28) depth: 7/24 00:00:00 125kN >>1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bf5 3.c3 Qe8 4.Bxf4 Qh5+ 5.Kg1 Bd3 >> ± (1.31) depth: 8/23 00:00:00 260kN >>1...f3 >> ± (1.28) depth: 8/24 00:00:00 314kN >>1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 Qf4+ 5.g3 Qf5 6.g4 >> ± (1.16) depth: 9/26 00:00:01 731kN >>1...Bxh3 >> ± (1.12) depth: 9/27 00:00:01 1317kN >>1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bc8 3.Bxf4 Ne6 4.dxe6 Qh4+ 5.Kg1 Rxf4 6.Qd5 >> ± (1.00) depth: 9/27 00:00:02 1698kN >>1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bc8 3.Bxf4 Ne6 4.dxe6 Qh4+ 5.Kg1 Rxf4 6.Qd5 >> ± (1.00) depth: 10/27 00:00:03 2552kN >>1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bc8 3.Bxf4 Ne6 4.dxe6 Qh4+ 5.Kg1 Rxf4 6.Qe3 >> ± (1.09) depth: 11/31 00:00:07 5091kN >>1...Bxh3-- >> +- (1.41) depth: 12/32 00:00:22 16702kN >>1...Bxh3 >> +- (1.41) depth: 12/34 00:00:24 18532kN >>1...f3 >> ± (1.37) depth: 12/34 00:00:29 21596kN >>1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 Qf4+ 5.g3 Qf5 6.g4 >> ± (1.16) depth: 12/36 00:00:38 28498kN >>1...Nxh3 >> ± (1.12) depth: 12/36 00:00:47 34730kN >>1...Nxh3 2.gxh3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Qxh3+ 4.Kg1 Qg4+ 5.Kf1 Qf3 6.Rg1 >> ± (1.06) depth: 12/36 00:00:50 37202kN >>1...Nf3+ >> ± (1.03) depth: 12/36 00:00:52 38577kN >>1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf6 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3 >> = (0.25) depth: 12/36 00:00:53 39290kN >>1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf6 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3 >> = (0.00) depth: 13/32 00:00:55 40746kN >>1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf6 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3 >> = (0.00) depth: 14/38 00:01:04 47886kN >>1...Nf3+! >> = (-0.16) depth: 15/35 00:01:37 73480kN >>1...Nf3+! 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.Bxf4 Rxf4 5.Qe3 Rf6 6.Qd4 >> µ (-0.84) depth: 15/39 00:02:08 97818kN >> >>(Young, 09.08.2000) > >It chose that move rapidly, but the evaluation shows that it is more a random >glitch than a computer brilliancy. When it gets the eval right, then I will >believe that the computer has made a brilliant move. It sees an advantage of >less than one pawn, so it does not know how good the move is yet *or* why it >should choose that one. It is rather impressive that the computer got to 15 >plies in a minute and a half, and a hundred million nodes in two minutes though. > Must be a pretty nice machine. It looks like it knows what its doing to me, what is the correct line of play here, that is more telling then the eval score. BTW Fritz 6a eval keeps climbing as it searches deeper and it sticks with Nf3+. I think it is a leap of logic to suggest that fritz 6a does not understand that Nf3+ is not only the best more here, but it is also winning. I think you will be hard pressed to call a 3.00 score a random glitch. Young,M - Fritz 6 r1bq1rk1/ppp3p1/7p/3P2n1/2PQ1p2/1N5P/PPP2PPK/R1B2R2 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Fritz 6: 1...Bxh3 +- (3.06) depth: 1/3 00:00:00 1...Bxh3 2.gxh3 +- (3.53) depth: 1/3 00:00:00 1...f3 +- (2.91) depth: 1/5 00:00:00 1...f3 ± (1.37) depth: 1/5 00:00:00 1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 ± (1.37) depth: 2/8 00:00:00 1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.g3 ± (1.22) depth: 3/12 00:00:00 1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 fxg2 4.Rxg2 ± (1.19) depth: 4/12 00:00:00 2kN 1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 fxg2 5.Rxg2 ± (1.31) depth: 5/21 00:00:00 13kN 1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 fxg2 5.Rxg2 ± (1.31) depth: 6/20 00:00:00 27kN 1...Bxh3! ± (1.28) depth: 6/20 00:00:00 51kN 1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bf5 3.c3 Qe8 4.Bxf4 Qh5+ 5.Kg1 ± (1.28) depth: 7/24 00:00:00 125kN 1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bf5 3.c3 Qe8 4.Bxf4 Qh5+ 5.Kg1 Bd3 ± (1.31) depth: 8/23 00:00:00 260kN 1...f3 ± (1.28) depth: 8/24 00:00:00 314kN 1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 Qf4+ 5.g3 Qf5 6.g4 ± (1.16) depth: 9/26 00:00:01 731kN 1...Bxh3 ± (1.12) depth: 9/27 00:00:01 1317kN 1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bc8 3.Bxf4 Ne6 4.dxe6 Qh4+ 5.Kg1 Rxf4 6.Qd5 ± (1.00) depth: 9/27 00:00:02 1698kN 1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bc8 3.Bxf4 Ne6 4.dxe6 Qh4+ 5.Kg1 Rxf4 6.Qd5 ± (1.00) depth: 10/27 00:00:03 2552kN 1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bc8 3.Bxf4 Ne6 4.dxe6 Qh4+ 5.Kg1 Rxf4 6.Qe3 ± (1.09) depth: 11/31 00:00:07 5091kN 1...Bxh3-- +- (1.41) depth: 12/32 00:00:22 16702kN 1...Bxh3 +- (1.41) depth: 12/34 00:00:24 18532kN 1...f3 ± (1.37) depth: 12/34 00:00:29 21596kN 1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 Qf4+ 5.g3 Qf5 6.g4 ± (1.16) depth: 12/36 00:00:38 28498kN 1...Nxh3 ± (1.12) depth: 12/36 00:00:47 34730kN 1...Nxh3 2.gxh3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Qxh3+ 4.Kg1 Qg4+ 5.Kf1 Qf3 6.Rg1 ± (1.06) depth: 12/36 00:00:50 37202kN 1...Nf3+ ± (1.03) depth: 12/36 00:00:52 38577kN 1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf6 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3 = (0.25) depth: 12/36 00:00:53 39290kN 1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf6 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3 = (0.00) depth: 13/32 00:00:55 40746kN 1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf6 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3 = (0.00) depth: 14/38 00:01:04 47886kN 1...Nf3+! = (-0.16) depth: 15/35 00:01:38 73480kN 1...Nf3+! 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.Bxf4 Rxf4 5.Qe3 Rf6 6.Qd4 µ (-0.84) depth: 15/39 00:02:11 97818kN 1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.Bxf4 Rxf4 5.Qe3 Rf6 6.Qd4 µ (-0.81) depth: 16/43 00:03:20 150511kN 1...Nf3+! µ (-1.13) depth: 17/42 00:07:07 330061kN 1...Nf3+! -+ (-1.44) depth: 18/43 00:16:35 784707kN 1...Nf3+! 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.Bxf4 Rxf4 5.Qe3 Raf8 6.Nd2 -+ (-3.00) depth: 18/46 00:24:16 1157884kN (Young, 09.08.2000)
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