Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 09:25:18 08/30/00
Go up one level in this thread
On August 30, 2000 at 11:48:04, Wayne Lowrance wrote: >On August 30, 2000 at 10:40:36, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 30, 2000 at 09:45:45, Wayne Lowrance wrote: >> >>>On August 30, 2000 at 04:47:49, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On August 30, 2000 at 04:34:08, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 30, 2000 at 02:42:49, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 30, 2000 at 00:31:24, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 29, 2000 at 23:19:59, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On August 29, 2000 at 19:18:17, Alexander Kure wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On August 29, 2000 at 13:58:52, Graham Laight wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Firstly, apologies to everyone for dashing off after the last game in the WMCCC. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>It enabled me to get an extra day's holiday with my girlfriend, though, which >>>>>>>>>>was well worthwhile! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Well deserved, Graham! >>>>>>>>>Thanks again for your work. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>[...] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>This game clearly showed that Fritz plays in a different league than Crafty! In >>>>>>>>>fact I think this was one of the best games of the WMCCC. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Greetings >>>>>>>>>Alex >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>My take on this game is a bit different. I do _not_ want my program to make >>>>>>>>such a sacrifice and then see the eval steadily go _down_ over the next few >>>>>>>>moves. It means one of two things for it to win such a game: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>1. The eval is bogus. It is saying "this is bad" when in reality "this is >>>>>>>>good". I don't want that sort of evaluation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>But this is unavoidable. Otherwise computer programs would only need to do a 1 >>>>>>>ply search. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>2. The program was lucky. A little luck doesn't hurt. But it doesn't win >>>>>>>>tournaments very often. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Again, unavoidable. Have crafty play against itself and you will still have >>>>>>>decisive games. The games are won due to luck, since they have the same eval. >>>>>>>The question is, "did Fritz make a good gamble?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Either the eval was wrong, or it was lucky. Neither one leave me feeling like >>>>>>>>"fritz is in a different league than Crafty..." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Of course, but that is pretty much how _all_ games are decided isn't it? >>>>>> >>>>>>No >>>>>> >>>>>>There are games when one side get advantage and slowly increase the advantage >>>>>>without having a worse position. >>>>> >>>>>The only truly correct evals are a: win, draw or loss. The other stuff in >>>>>between are _practical_ assessments that do not correspond to the true >>>>>evaluation of the position, but they are precisely what all programs rely on in >>>>>all games. Yes? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I suspect white has better moves that might have justified the pessimistic eval >>>>>>>>Fritz had... The right program might have made that sacrifice look as ugly as >>>>>>>>this game made it look brilliant... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Better moves may exist, but you have to _find_ them. >>>>>> >>>>>>Crafty could find Nxe6. >>>>> >>>>>If Nxe6 is an improvement for crafty, it had to find it during the game and not >>>>>after. Why it didn't is irrelevant to the result. The result still stands. >>>> >>>>The result stands but the impression that fritz is a different league than >>>>crafty does not stand. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>>I have both programs. It stands, has been that way for a long time ! Fritz found >>>a move that Crafty could not find an answer for, all of the other stuff is >>>excuse making ! >>>Wayne >> >> >>I'm not trying to make _any_ excuses. Crafty lost. That happens. The issue >>(to me, now) is simply "did it _have_ to lose that game, was the sac sound, >>if not, why didn't it find the right response?" >> >>I always analyze losses to see what went wrong, otherwise there would be no >>way to make it play better. There are two ideas here: (1) if it should have >>found Nxe6 but didn't, then that changes things a lot. IE it shouldn't have >>lost but did due to operator error, my error, or a programming problem. (2) if >>it couldn't find Nxe6 on the hardware it had, period, then the discussion is >>now not about Crafty, but about Fritz, since it played a bad move but the >>opponent didn't punish it correctly. In that case, Fritz needs some tuning as >>it won't always get away with playing such a sac. There is no sense in a >>program impaling itself on its own sword... > >I apoligize, I should not have said excuse making. I have over reacted. I think >bias had set in as Fritz is my favourite program. > >Wayne Nothing wrong with that bias. I believe that Fritz is the best of the best, and has been for several years... IMHO of course..
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