Author: Enrique Irazoqui
Date: 12:39:07 12/16/00
Go up one level in this thread
On December 16, 2000 at 14:39:40, Uri Blass wrote: >On December 16, 2000 at 13:40:41, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: > >>On December 16, 2000 at 13:18:25, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On December 16, 2000 at 12:45:33, Ed Schröder wrote: >>> >>>>On December 16, 2000 at 11:18:04, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 16, 2000 at 11:00:12, Andreas St. wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On December 16, 2000 at 10:11:31, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>[D]4rrk1/5ppp/p2b4/1p1Q1b2/3P4/2P3Pq/PP1B1P1P/RN2R1K1 b - - 0 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The problem is to find Bf4 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I tried 2 programs Chessmaster6000(ss=10) and Gambittiger and both of them found >>>>>>>Bf4 in less than an hour on my pIII450 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Chessmaster6000 needed 18 minutes and 31 seconds when Gambittiger needed more >>>>>>>time but less than an hour(I do not remember the exact time). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Is there a program that is better than the old program chessmaster6000 in >>>>>>>finding Bf4? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I am interested in the results of Deep Fritz and Chessmaster8000 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>>again i see as always default settings in Chessmaster 6000/7000 arent very good. >>>>> >>>>>ss=10 is not the default setting for chessmaster(ss=6 is the default). >>>>> >>>>>I know that tests did not prove significant difference between >>>>>chessmaster6000(ss=10) and other personalities. >>>>> >>>>>It is possible that chessmaster6555 is better at test positions(I do not know) >>>>>but there is no clear evidence which personality is better in games. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>I am sure I am missing something. Bf4 looks like a horrible positional >>>>blunder (1..Bxf4). What is the point of Bf4? >>>> >>>>Ed >>> >>>You missed the fact that black is the side to move and not white. >>> >>>Uri >> >>I don't think it's a convincing test position. The programs I tried evaluate Bf4 >>0.1 or 0.2 better than next best. Gambit Tiger says -0.30 for Bf4 and -0.48 for >>Rd8. Century 3 also shows tiny differences. >> >>What's the complete line? After Bf4 RxR RxR Qg2 black looks better to me, but so >>it did from the start position. >> >>Enrique > >I do not have a winning line for black after Bf4 RxR RxR Qg2 > >I posted this position as test position because of the fact that yoav dothan >posted a correspondence game when this position happened and he claimed that >even modern chess programs cannot predict this move. > >He claimed that it demonstrates the advantage of humans relative to computers. > >I do not agree with him and it was proved that at least 2 programs found Bf4. > >The game that was published from the correspondence olympiad in 1960 proves the >advantage of computers relative to humans because white probably could not find >the best defence after 18...Bf4 and prefered 19.Qg2 that is the second best move >based on chess programs. > > >19.Qg2 Rxe1+ 20.Bxe1 Bc1 21.Qxh3 Bxh3 22.Nd2 Bxb2 23.Rb1(I think that 23.Rd1 is >better) Bxc3 24.Nb3 Rc8 25.f3?(25.Bxc3 or 25.Rc1 were better) Bf5 26.Rc1 Bxd4+ >27.Bf2 Rxc1+ 28.Nxc1 Bb2 0-1 was the human-human game that was published in the >chess newspaper in Israel. > > > >I think that I can give better hard test positions based on my games. >Here is one that could happen in my correspondence game. > >The target is to find Bh8 > >[D]rqr3k1/pp1bppbp/2np1npB/8/2BNP1P1/2N2P2/PPPQ4/2KR3R b - - 0 1 > >The alternatives are bad. > >14...Nxd4 15.Bxg7 is winning for white and white has also a clear advantage >after 14...Nxe4 15.Nxe4 Bxd4 16.Qg5(for example 16...Bh8 17.Rxd6 Qxd6 18.Nxd6 >exd6 19.Qh4) > >I remember that Gandalf needed a long time to find 14...Bh8(more than an hour on >my PIII450 if my memory is correct). > >Uri rqr3k1/pp1bppbp/2np1npB/8/2BNP1P1/2N2P2/PPPQ4/2KR3R b - - 0 1 Analysis by Deep Fritz T29c: 1...Bxh6-- = (-0.13) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 1...Bxh6-- = (-0.13) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 1...Nxd4! = (-0.19) Depth: 1/9 00:00:00 1...Nxd4! 2.Qxd4 ³ (-0.63) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1...Nxe4! ³ (-0.66) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1...Nxe4! 2.Nxc6 µ (-1.38) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1...Nxe4-- µ (-1.03) Depth: 2/15 00:00:00 1...Nxe4-- 2.Bxf7+ Kxf7 µ (-1.00) Depth: 2/15 00:00:00 1kN 1...Nxe4 2.Bxf7+ Kxf7 3.Nxc6 µ (-1.00) Depth: 3/20 00:00:00 8kN 1...Nxe4 2.Nxc6 Nxd2 3.Bxf7+ Kxf7 µ (-0.94) Depth: 4/12 00:00:00 13kN 1...Nxe4 2.Nxc6 Nxd2 3.Bxf7+ Kxf7 4.Nxb8 µ (-0.94) Depth: 5/22 00:00:00 34kN 1...Nxe4-- ³ (-0.63) Depth: 6/25 00:00:00 162kN 1...Nxe4-- 2.Qf4 d5 3.Nxc6 Qxf4+ 4.Bxf4 Bxc6 ³ (-0.44) Depth: 6/25 00:00:00 267kN 1...Nxe4 2.Qf4 d5 3.Nxc6 Qxf4+ 4.Bxf4 Bxc6 5.Nxd5 ³ (-0.44) Depth: 7/27 00:00:00 510kN 1...Nxe4 2.Qf4 d5 3.Nxc6 Rxc6 4.Nxd5 Qxf4+ 5.Bxf4 Re8 6.Bd3 ³ (-0.41) Depth: 8/27 00:00:00 970kN 1...Nxd4! ³ (-0.44) Depth: 8/27 00:00:01 1319kN 1...Nxd4! 2.Qxd4 Bh8 3.Qd3 Qc7 4.Bd5 Bc6 5.Bxc6 ³ (-0.47) Depth: 8/28 00:00:01 1409kN 1...Nxd4 2.Qxd4 Bxh6+ 3.Rxh6 b5 4.Bb3 b4 5.Nd5 Nxd5 6.Bxd5 Qc7 7.Qd3 ³ (-0.44) Depth: 9/27 00:00:01 1974kN 1...Nxe4! ³ (-0.47) Depth: 9/29 00:00:02 2982kN 1...Nxe4 2.Nxe4 Bxd4 3.Bf4 b5 4.Bd5 Qb6 5.Qh2 h6 6.Qxh6 ³ (-0.28) Depth: 10/30 00:00:04 6367kN 1...Nxd4! ³ (-0.31) Depth: 10/30 00:00:05 7273kN 1...Nxd4-- = (0.00) Depth: 11/30 00:00:09 13606kN 1...Nxd4-- 2.Bxg7 Kxg7 3.Qh6+ Kg8 4.Rxd4 Bc6 5.g5 Nh5 6.f4 e5 7.fxe5 = (0.22) Depth: 11/35 00:00:11 15593kN 1...Nxe4! = (0.19) Depth: 11/35 00:00:13 19088kN 1...Nxe4! 2.Nxe4 Bxd4 3.Bf4 b5 4.Bd5 Bg7 5.Ng5 e6 6.Be4 e5 7.Qxd6 ³ (-0.34) Depth: 11/35 00:00:16 23157kN 1...Nxe4-- = (-0.03) Depth: 12/34 00:00:21 29863kN 1...Nxe4-- 2.Nxe4 Bxd4 3.Qh2 b5 4.Bd5 Be5 5.Bf4 Bxf4+ 6.Qxf4 Be6 7.Qh6 = (0.00) Depth: 12/34 00:00:27 37698kN 1...Bh8! = (0.12) Depth: 12/38 00:01:03 81951kN 1...Bh8! 2.Nxc6 Rxc6 3.Bb3 Be6 4.Bxe6 fxe6 5.e5 Ne8 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qh2 = (0.06) Depth: 12/38 00:01:10 91148kN 1...Bh8 2.Nxc6 Bxc6 3.Bg5 Qc7 4.Bxf6 Bxf6 5.Qh6 e6 6.Rd3 b5 7.Bb3 ² (0.31) Depth: 13/39 00:02:00 153991kN (Irazoqui, Cadaqués 16.12.2000)
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